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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 31 2012, 10:32 AM   #796
apenpaap
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You're right, In Theory was a good episode as well.
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Old January 31 2012, 11:52 AM   #797
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I enjoyed In Theory, though I'm not sure why that woman who had had relationship trouble in the past would want to date an android? I enjoyed Lessons much more - Neela is a very strong woman who challenges Picard, and we even have an Inner Light reference thrown in for measure. It was a very touching episode.

I also enjoyed Rejoined, A Simple Investigation, Lifesigns and Counterpoint. These types of episodes can work when done well, but the writers have obviously have trouble avoiding the pitfalls of having a main character falling in love so quickly for a character we don't know or care about.

Anyway!

I love Defiant. I remember when I rewatched this for the first time, a few years after I first saw it. I remembered Jonathon Frakes popping up in it and just though it was a silly publicity stunt, which is probably true to some extent. I was suprised at how good an episode it was though. Dukat and Sisko had some good scenes together, and I loved that the Obsidian Order fleet plot point would later be revisited.

It also was fun seeing the Riker charm working on Kira, even if it wasn't Will Riker! I would have liked some sort of follow-up on him, even if it was in a Cal Hudson kind of offscreen way.
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Old January 31 2012, 12:16 PM   #798
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^Ah, forgot Rejoined. It's another good one. Wow, that brings me to seven romance of the week episodes I like already.
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Old January 31 2012, 02:44 PM   #799
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Of these seven episodes (A Simple Investigation, Profit and Loss, Counterpoint, Lessons, In Theory, Rejoined and Lifesigns) I'm noticing a theme - the "good" ones tend to involve either a relationship that already has history or one that doesn't really end in "love."

"Good"
Profit and Loss - Quark and Natima have history.
Rejoined - Dax and Kahn have history.
Counterpoint - Janeway and Kashyk don't actually care for each other.
In Theory - Data isn't in love, he's just experimenting.

Bad
Lessons - Picard and Daren fall in love immediately.
Lifesigns - The Doctor and Denara fall in love immediately.

A Simple Investigation is the only one that bucks this trend. Odo and Arrisa have no history yet the episode still somehow manages to rise above it and be good.
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Old January 31 2012, 04:38 PM   #800
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I consider the two you cite as "Bad" to be rather decent myself. Conversely, "A Simple Investigation" didn't really do much for me.
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Old January 31 2012, 08:24 PM   #801
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

So no love for Captains Holiday - Vash and Picard on Risa, the manipulations, the chemistry and flirting, the intrigue...

Or does it not count because of Qpid
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Old January 31 2012, 08:25 PM   #802
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Fascination (**½)

Yes, I know, some of you are probably very angry with me for that score. I completely understand. This and the two stars I gave to Move Along Home probably have some of you questioning my sanity, some of you may have lost respect for me and decided to give up on this thread, and some of you are no doubt searching for a hitman in my local area to exact a fitting punishment. But what else can I say other than that I don't hate this episode? It's by no means a good episode, but it has things that I like and dislike. Those of you that can still read through the rage-filled tears that are streaming down your face may wish to read on...

I like the tone of the episode. I like seeing some alien version of a celebratory holiday. Star Trek doesn't do holidays and never has, there's no Space Christmas, there's no Space Halloween, and there's no St Space Patrick's Day. I understand that this is because Star Trek doesn't want to push western/Christian culture as being the dominant one in the future and that's all well and good, but as a secularist I can't say that I look forward to a future where cultural and religious holidays disappear entirely. What holidays have we seen in Trek? There was Captain Picard Day, but that was only observed on the Enterprise and Mintaka III. Voyager mentioned a First Contact Day, but that was just an excuse for Neelix to be more obnoxious than normal. So this Bajoran Gratitude Festival is the only time that we really get to see characters in the Trek universe taking the day off, kicking back and enjoying themselves. The episode uses this to try out interesting and complex cinematography, there's more energy than normal on the sets, even the colours seem more vibrant than normal.

There's also the b-plot where O'Brien's marriage is falling apart. It's not the most compelling drama, but as someone who has been in a long-distance relationship and experienced the jealousy and suspicion that goes along with it, I identified strongly with O'Brien. So I liked that part of the story. Your mileage may vary.

As for the a-plot, that's where the problems are. It's a farce, but good farces still need effective punchlines and this episode doesn't have any. Take the Frasier episode The Two Mrs Cranes, one of that show's premier farce episodes. (I watched it earlier today, that's why it has come to mind.) All the main characters in that episode are forced to lie in some way to a guest, and as the evening goes on the lies become more intricate and absurd. The farce provides the episode with the energy it needs to knock you down with the punchlines, and it provides one of my favourite comedic lines from anything:

DAPHNE: Really, we're not the awful people you think we are.
FRASIER: No, the truth is we've been lying to you all night!
One of the problems with Fascination is that it builds up a lot of energy and doesn't really do anything with it. Kira and Bashir making out, Jadzia knocking Bareil to the floor, and Quark falling in love with Keiko aren't really funny by themselves, they're just awkward and somewhat disturbing. Well, that's my take on things.

Now that you've heard what I have to say, please feel free to attack me and my diminished credibility. But please, leave my family out of it, they don't deserve to be punished for my mistakes.
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Old January 31 2012, 08:58 PM   #803
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I like "Lessons" and "Captain's Holiday" quite well myself. And I got not particular beef with "Fascination" - it's not great by any means, but it's got some fun moments and isn't painfully awful.
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Old January 31 2012, 09:06 PM   #804
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I know I'm a bit late with this, but I've just rewatched Playing God, and have to wonder why they thought dumping the proto-universe into the gamma quadrant was going to help. After all, it was going to expand to destroy the entire universe, so what difference does it make whether it starts doing dso right here or on the other side of the galaxy? The only explanation of why it didn't destroy the universe anyway I can think of, is that it was found by the Dominion, who probably had no qualms about destroying it to preserve themselves.
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Old January 31 2012, 09:07 PM   #805
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Actually, I don't mind Fascination. It's not a good episode by any means, but as you say, it's vibrant, colourful, has a genuine atmosphere of cultural festivity that's otherwise non-existant in Trek, and it's light-heartedly silly rather than unintentionally silly. Other than the O'Brien plot which is actually serious and effective enough (and it's nice to see realistic mundane character problems once in a while), this is a deliberately foolish episode, and it's okay overall. Rather "meh", but enjoyable enough, different enough to be memorable without overstaying its welcome by pretending to be meaningful when it isn't.

So you get a stay of execution this time, TGB. We are amused.
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Old January 31 2012, 10:14 PM   #806
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I know I'm a bit late with this, but I've just rewatched Playing God, and have to wonder why they thought dumping the proto-universe into the gamma quadrant was going to help. After all, it was going to expand to destroy the entire universe, so what difference does it make whether it starts doing dso right here or on the other side of the galaxy? The only explanation of why it didn't destroy the universe anyway I can think of, is that it was found by the Dominion, who probably had no qualms about destroying it to preserve themselves.
They put it back in the "subspace pocket" where they found it. The only reason it got pulled out was due to some technobabble reason, if I remember correctly.

I didn't mind Fascination. It wasn't the best episode, but it was still kind of good.

Next up is one of my favorite two parters, Past Tense.
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Old January 31 2012, 11:34 PM   #807
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Of these seven episodes (A Simple Investigation, Profit and Loss, Counterpoint, Lessons, In Theory, Rejoined and Lifesigns) I'm noticing a theme - the "good" ones tend to involve either a relationship that already has history or one that doesn't really end in "love.".
That's a good observation. I think when there is some history it makes it more believable. When you go from just meeting someone to being willing to throw away your entire life away for them by the next act (cough, "Meridian," cough) it seems very disingenuous.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I like the tone of the episode. I like seeing some alien version of a celebratory holiday. Star Trek doesn't do holidays and never has, there's no Space Christmas, there's no Space Halloween, and there's no St Space Patrick's Day. I understand that this is because Star Trek doesn't want to push western/Christian culture as being the dominant one in the future and that's all well and good, but as a secularist I can't say that I look forward to a future where cultural and religious holidays disappear entirely. What holidays have we seen in Trek? There was Captain Picard Day, but that was only observed on the Enterprise and Mintaka III. Voyager mentioned a First Contact Day, but that was just an excuse for Neelix to be more obnoxious than normal. So this Bajoran Gratitude Festival is the only time that we really get to see characters in the Trek universe taking the day off, kicking back and enjoying themselves. The episode uses this to try out interesting and complex cinematography, there's more energy than normal on the sets, even the colours seem more vibrant than normal.
Totally agree with this. I think it's what makes me (somewhat) like this episode as well. It makes like seem more real and relatable. Who wants to never celebrate anything or never have a reason for a 3 day weekend?
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Old February 1 2012, 12:01 AM   #808
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Fascination is alright. It's another one of those episodes I liked back when I was younger, and don't like so much now. Aside from the decent O'Brien story, it's just a bit silly, even for a silly person like me.

And bringing up that Frasier episode just makes me miss Frasier more and wish that Star Trek had taken a leaf out of Frasier's book when doing farce.

As for Captain's Holiday, it was okay. I'm not sure I'm that keen on Vash, and I was definitely fed up of her by the time she showed up on DS9. I couldn't buy why Picard would fall for her. Well, besides Patrick Stewart requesting more sex and shooting.
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Old February 1 2012, 04:20 AM   #809
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I also somewhat like Fascination. It definitely has it's groan inducing parts (Bashir/Kira and Dax attacking Bareil) but it also has some good silly moments as well. Quark falling for Keiko and O'Brien's reaction are hilarious IMHO.

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Who wants to never celebrate anything or never have a reason for a 3 day weekend?
Gene Roddenberry, apparently.
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Old February 1 2012, 09:23 AM   #810
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Fascination is essentially DS9 doing A Midsummer Night's Dream. As that's one of my favorites of Shakespeare, yeah, it's a guilty pleasure of mine. Yes, it's silly and essentially kind of throwawayable (it's a word shut up), but it's FUN. Sometimes that's all I need. And, like TheGodBen, I like that we get to see a genuinely non-Earth holiday. We can draw parallels to ones that we have, but the Festival of Gratitude is an entirely Bajoran event, and I love that. Much like the Bajoran backhanded clap, it's a little thing that reminds us that, despite the only visible difference being the bumps on their noses, the Bajorans are not human.
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