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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 30 2012, 05:44 AM   #781
Hanukkah Solo
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Bah, the Scots and the Irish are practically the same anyway, right?

*ducks*
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Old January 30 2012, 06:58 PM   #782
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Skywalker wrote: View Post
Bah, the Scots and the Irish are practically the same anyway, right?

*ducks*
Eh, I don't mind being linked with the Scots, just don't try and compare us with the English.


Defiant (****)

I wonder how they crafted this episode. Did they start with the idea of the Maquis stealing the Defiant and added Tom Riker in later, did they start with the idea of doing a story with Tom Riker, did they start with the idea of doing an episode with Will Riker and it slowly evolved to be about Tom? To me, it feels like the first one, they had the idea of doing a story where Sisko had to help Dukat track down the Defiant and they chose to have Tom Riker leading the Maquis crew because that would allow them to put Jonathan Frakes on the promos. Perhaps that's a cynical take on it, but that's what happens sometimes in Hollywoodland. At least the writers are skilled enough to make it work, although the early scenes where the DS9 crew treat Riker like a celebrity don't feel completely natural. I just can't see Sisko thinking "Hey, the first officer of the Enterprise is onboard for some R&R, I should invite him to my office for a chat and pretend like we're buddies for no reason."

There's one thing this episode does better than any episode so far this season, it shows the Defiant to be the badass warship that it really is. In The Search it got beat up real bad, in Equilibrium it was a medical transport, in Second Skin it snuck about all quiet-like, and in Meridian it was engulfed in shit. But in this episode the Defiant is stolen and suddenly a whole empire is forced to go on alert because of the threat it poses. Riker's about to go up against three of Cardassia's most powerful ships and he's all like "Eh, we can take them." This is the Defiant that I remember.

This episode is both elevated and diminished by what came later. It's elevated by the fact that the fleet the Obsidian Order is building isn't just used as a convenient out for this episode (although it may have been when this episode was written), that fleet plays an important role later in the season and in an unexpected way. In this episode you get the impression that the Obsidian Order may be planning to seize complete control from the Central Command, that is the obvious thing to do, but that's not what DS9 eventually does. That being said, the lack of any follow-up to Tom Riker's story feels like a loose thread because Kira specifically promises to rescue him. But nope, he was probably executed during the war. The end. (I don't care if the novels followed up on his story, I don't read the novels because of my illiteracy.)

The best scene of the episode is the one between Dukat and Sisko as they talk about their kids' birthdays. When Dukat first mentions it, you can see that Sisko sees this as an opportunity to establish a dialogue with Dukat and show him that humans and Cardassians aren't all that different, just like the Starfleet training taught him to do. But Dukat's not interested and he shoves Sisko's offer of friendship back in his face because he loathes Sisko, he just wants Sisko to like and respect him to satisfy his own ego. Damn, those two are great together.

Sykonee's Counter: 16
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Old January 30 2012, 08:47 PM   #783
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I wonder how they crafted this episode. Did they start with the idea of the Maquis stealing the Defiant and added Tom Riker in later, did they start with the idea of doing a story with Tom Riker, did they start with the idea of doing an episode with Will Riker and it slowly evolved to be about Tom? To me, it feels like the first one
It was the second one according to the DS9 companion. Moore came up with the idea of Tom Riker leading the Maquis; Behr then wanted him to come to the station; and then Moore thought of a reason for him to show up - the Defiant.
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Old January 30 2012, 09:06 PM   #784
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It looks we going to avoid the usual question that comes up with this episode this time?
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Old January 30 2012, 09:31 PM   #785
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I wonder how they crafted this episode. Did they start with the idea of the Maquis stealing the Defiant and added Tom Riker in later, did they start with the idea of doing a story with Tom Riker, did they start with the idea of doing an episode with Will Riker and it slowly evolved to be about Tom?
I always thought that in the wake of TNG ending and "Generations" that it was just a ploy to lure TNG fans over to DS9.

I just looked it up... this episode was released for syndication on 11/21/94 and Generations hit theaters 11/18/94. So to me Tom Riker = Find a way to put a TNG star on DS9.

Oh, and I totally agree about the weird hero worship vibe. It's as if everyone on DS9 had just gone to the movies and is startruck or something.
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Old January 30 2012, 09:53 PM   #786
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Seriously, Trek has only done one romance-of-the-week episode that was any good, and this is not it!
I'm curious as to which episode is a good romance of the week?
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Old January 30 2012, 10:00 PM   #787
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

IMO there are a few good romance of the week episodes. Lessons is great; and so is Odo's romance of the week episode. Voyager's Counterpoint and the one with The Doctor falling in love with a Vidiian are good as well. IIRC the single episode in which Natima Lang appeared in the tv shows was a pretty good romance of the week with her and Quark too. Most of them are awful, though, but those five stand to my memory as good ones.
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Old January 30 2012, 10:49 PM   #788
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Skywalker wrote: View Post
Bah, the Scots and the Irish are practically the same anyway, right?
Right.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
]
Eh, I don't mind being linked with the Scots, just don't try and compare us with the English.
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Old January 31 2012, 03:31 AM   #789
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

MacLeod wrote: View Post
It looks we going to avoid the usual question that comes up with this episode this time?
That's because the answer is obvious.

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
Seriously, Trek has only done one romance-of-the-week episode that was any good, and this is not it!
I'm curious as to which episode is a good romance of the week?
A Simple Investigation.


I like Defiant, even if it has a touch of TNG worship thrown into it. I only wish they had reused the set where Dukat and Sisko coordinate the hunt later in the series for Dominion Headquarters during the war.
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Old January 31 2012, 03:36 AM   #790
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
A Simple Investigation.
I agree; that's DS9's notable exception to the rule when it comes to "romance of the week"...

Meridian, of course, is the bottom of the barrel.
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Old January 31 2012, 03:39 AM   #791
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ Absolutely, Profit and Loss has some good elements to to it (mostly because Quark and Natima have a history - they don't meet for the first time in the episode and instantly fall in love), but ultimately not as good. VOY's Counterpoint also has some good elements, in that actually allows Janeway to have some romance. But again, it's not that good.
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Old January 31 2012, 03:52 AM   #792
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
^ Absolutely, Profit and Loss has some good elements to to it (mostly because Quark and Natima have a history - they don't meet for the first time in the episode and instantly fall in love), but ultimately not as good. VOY's Counterpoint also has some good elements, in that actually allows Janeway to have some romance. But again, it's not that good.
Yes, I'm quite fond of Counterpoint, too. Of course, the revelations that Kashyk was using her and that Janeway never truly fell for it probably help sell it; it's not truly a lightning romance but a sad dream for Janeway that she was too smart to really buy...

To complete the 24th Century trilogy, were there any TNG episodes of the type that truly worked? Apenpaap mentioned "Lessons", but I don't remember it too well...
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Old January 31 2012, 04:04 AM   #793
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Lessons was the one where Picard fell for Lt. Commander Nella Daren. I suppose it's okay, but not one I would consider all that great.

If I were to pick a TNG episode that comes closest to being a good romance-of-the-week, it would be In Theory (the one where Data has a girlfriend).
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Old January 31 2012, 04:44 AM   #794
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think "Profit and Loss" would be remembered more fondly if Natima had returned at some point. Maybe during the Dominion's rule over Cardassia.
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Old January 31 2012, 04:46 AM   #795
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

^ I think that would be true of any romance-of-the-week.
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