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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 20 2011, 12:04 PM   #61
Ln X
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You know in that scene, the one where Bashir first meets Garak, I never got the impression that Garak was gay. I think Garak had an elegant, but also sinister way, of being polite. Also I think Garak, knowing how naive Bashir was, wanted to scare Bashir a little, because Bashir was definitely on edge with Garak.

But all of this has been horribly misinterpreted by the 'is Garak gay' bunch of people, as Garak trying to 'coming on' to Bashir. Listen if Garak was really gay, then he would have done the standard Cardassian thing for making ones feelings known; been hostile and argumentative towards Bashir.

But that didn't happen because either a) Garak knows a lot more about human culture and traditions then he lets on, or b) Garak was never 'attracted' to Bashir in the first place. Besides with Cardassian society, and their obsession with family, I think a gay Cardassian, if discovered to be gay by his(or her) peers, would be heavily stigmatised.
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Old October 20 2011, 12:49 PM   #62
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Given that Garak was in the Obsidian Order, it wouldn't be that surprising if he had an above-average knowledge of human society. As for Garak being stigmatized...he was already in exile, I don't think he could get much more stigmatized than that.

I'm not saying he's gay...I really don't think there's very strong evidence either way, especially given that he is an alien and any attempts to interpret his sexuality from a human standpoint seem likely to run into some pitfalls.
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Old October 20 2011, 12:50 PM   #63
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Count me in the group that never thought Garak was gay. I just didn't see it.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
The big problem with this episode is the complete lack of fallout from Sisko discovering the Celestial Temple. I'm pretty sure that if we found Allah hiding out in the Kuiper belt it would be an Earth-shaking event that people would be talking about months later, but there's not a whiff of that in this episode. And it's not just that the writers ignore the issue, it's that they address the wormhole frequently without any emphasis on the religious element of it. I can understand Tahna Los' reasoning for trying to collapse the entrance to the wormhole, and perhaps he doesn't care about the religious implications because he's not a religious guy, but it's absolute craziness that Kira doesn't address that issue once Tahna reveals his plan.
That has always bugged me about this episode as well. Emissary makes it clear that the Bajorans consider the Wormhole to be where their gods live. I could more easily accept that Tahna is willing to destroy it if they had just stated that he doesn't care about the Celestial Temple or that he just doesn't believe in the Prophets. For Kira to say nothing about it, is shocking.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Kira has to be the first main character on Star Trek that actively dislikes the Federation, and what a wonderful decision that was, because questioning the actions of the Federation is healthy and that was previously a viewpoint reserved for the villains.
I agree about how important this was. I think part of the preachiness of TNG, and where so many of its episodes failed (even good ones like "The Wounded") was the it was always Federation views and behaviors being treated as perfect (even when blatantly wrong) and anything an alien said to contradict that meant they just couldn't understand those lofty humans and needed a lesson in the moral of the week.
Most definitely. One of the worst offenders in that camp is Homeward - where they literally sit back and watch as an entire civilization is extinguished and then treat the guest (who's even a Human) like he's scum for saving a few of the people. All of it is done under the justification that interference would have changed their culture. So, in other words, if it's a choice between a different culture and death, the lofty Federation will choose death for you and don't you dare question that wisdom.



Thank God they were willing to explore issues more fully on DS9.
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Old October 20 2011, 08:45 PM   #64
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I saw what people were talking about with Garak's sexuality when rewatching it, but I never saw it the first time.

I don't care. The man's great as it is, no need to flesh out everything.

(And btw, loving the review thread TGB. Been waiting for this for like.. ever!)
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Old October 20 2011, 09:03 PM   #65
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

A Man Alone (**½)

This episode was a missed opportunity because there's a good story buried in here that gets lost in the crazy sci-fi gimmick. The Bajoran protesters have a valid point; why is Odo still the security chief on the station when he used to work for the Cardassians? Surely, he had arrested a number of resistance members during the occupation and that would create some tension among the Bajoran population now that the Cardassians are gone. But rather than address that issue head-on, this episode skirts around it by having Odo framed for a murder and then revealing the shocking sci-fi twist that the murder victim was just a clone.

But the bigger missed opportunity was this line from Sisko that almost felt out of place in this plot:

THE SISKO: Do not condemn this man because he is different from you!
I heard that line and realised that this episode missed the perfect chance to explore the prejudice and fear that solids have towards Changelings. We know that the Dominion were founded out of the resentment the Changelings felt about the persecution they suffered from solids, and this episode presented the perfect opportunity for Odo to face the same sort of persecution that they faced. It would have fleshed out the Founders and helped us to understand where they are coming from, instead we only get a little bit of anti-shapeshifter talk before it's all brushed under the rug with the Scooby-Doo ending.

What rescues this episode are all the various character interactions. We see the beginnings of Jake and Nog's friendship, Bashir's lusting after Jadzia, O'Brien struggling to assuage Keiko, Sisko adapting to the new Dax, and Odo and Quark trying their hardest not to like one another. My favourite moment was when Sisko accidentally invited Bashir to lunch and gets a look of mild horror on his face when he realises he now has to spend time alone with this obnoxious young guy. Some people criticise these moments as being soap-operaesque, but the little moments like these make DS9 feel more real to me.

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Old October 20 2011, 09:51 PM   #66
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Yeah, another average episode. The main plot sort of meanders along before becoming interesting with the clone part, though by then we've all had our nytol and called it a day.

I agree with what you say regarding station life - it's fun to see people adjusting to their new environment. I like Keiko for some strange reason. Seeing her open the school to help give the kids a bit of purpose is nicely played. Jake and Nog having fun together is also good.

I always wonder where people are coming from when they compare DS9 to a soap opera. Have they never seen one? Soap operas are usually terrible, with plotlines that repeat themselves and horrible characters having affairs and backstabbing each other.
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Old October 20 2011, 09:58 PM   #67
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You know TheGodBen, every episode you review I'm watching!
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Old October 20 2011, 09:58 PM   #68
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Odo knows zero about the Founders at this point.
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Old October 20 2011, 10:33 PM   #69
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Severed Fingers wrote: View Post
I always wonder where people are coming from when they compare DS9 to a soap opera. Have they never seen one? Soap operas are usually terrible, with plotlines that repeat themselves and horrible characters having affairs and backstabbing each other.
My theory is that some people are unable to understand the difference between a soap opera and a serial. That or they are unwilling to commit to a show that actually requires you to watch most of the episodes.
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Old October 20 2011, 11:06 PM   #70
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Severed Fingers wrote: View Post
I always wonder where people are coming from when they compare DS9 to a soap opera. Have they never seen one? Soap operas are usually terrible, with plotlines that repeat themselves and horrible characters having affairs and backstabbing each other.
My theory is that some people are unable to understand the difference between a soap opera and a serial. That or they are unwilling to commit to a show that actually requires you to watch most of the episodes.
Though DS9 is more soaplike than over Trek series, it's no soap opera. Soap opera's have continuous dramatic storylines whereas DS9 had dozens of small character stories, which were subtle, and for a true fan of the series, gave the whole thing flavour.

In short, once you added all the character stories together, and watched the episodes, the better episodes in the later seasons become more gratifying to watch because the whole thing had steadily built up to that point. That's the magic of DS9.
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Old October 21 2011, 12:22 AM   #71
Admiral Shran
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
But the bigger missed opportunity was this line from Sisko that almost felt out of place in this plot:

THE SISKO: Do not condemn this man because he is different from you!
I heard that line and realised that this episode missed the perfect chance to explore the prejudice and fear that solids have towards Changelings. We know that the Dominion were founded out of the resentment the Changelings felt about the persecution they suffered from solids, and this episode presented the perfect opportunity for Odo to face the same sort of persecution that they faced. It would have fleshed out the Founders and helped us to understand where they are coming from, instead we only get a little bit of anti-shapeshifter talk before it's all brushed under the rug with the Scooby-Doo ending.
I think the obvious answer to this problem is that TPTB didn't have any plans or conception of the Founders or the Dominion at this early point. However, when the show is taken as a whole, it can be a problem.

This is a rather lackluster or average episode that is indeed saved by the characters, especially the scene of Odo standing stoically in his defaced office.

Severed Fingers wrote: View Post
I always wonder where people are coming from when they compare DS9 to a soap opera. Have they never seen one? Soap operas are usually terrible, with plotlines that repeat themselves and horrible characters having affairs and backstabbing each other.
I agree with Nerys - most people seem to think that any story that is continuous is a soap opera. This, I think, is especially true for people familiar with TOS and TNG, which had only minor serialization. They expect Trek to be a string of standalone episodes and aren't prepared for something else. Given that VOY and the first two seasons of ENT continued with the standalone format, I can see how people might be a little surprised by DS9.
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Old October 21 2011, 12:26 AM   #72
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Ln X wrote: View Post
You know TheGodBen, every episode you review I'm watching!
I apologise in advance for reviewing If Wishes Were Horses.

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Odo knows zero about the Founders at this point.
I know, and I know that the writers hadn't come up with the idea of the Dominion at this point, I just think it would have been fortuitous if they had done an episode about the persecution of a Changeling before they had the brilliant idea of having that be the basis of the Dominion. It would have made this episode relevant to DS9's larger themes, as it is it's just a forgettable standalone episode.

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
Severed Fingers wrote: View Post
I always wonder where people are coming from when they compare DS9 to a soap opera. Have they never seen one? Soap operas are usually terrible, with plotlines that repeat themselves and horrible characters having affairs and backstabbing each other.
My theory is that some people are unable to understand the difference between a soap opera and a serial.
I think that's at the crux of it. Some people think that focusing on the relationships of the characters somehow makes a show a soap opera, but if that were true then shows like The Sopranos and Mad Men would also be considered soap operas, which they are certainly not.

The only thing that comes close to being soap opera-ish about DS9 is the Kira/Odo will they/wont they arc, which is only one of dozens of plot elements in the show.
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Old October 21 2011, 12:34 AM   #73
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
You know TheGodBen, every episode you review I'm watching!
I apologise in advance for reviewing If Wishes Were Horses.
Making Ln X watch If Wishes Were Horses isn't as horrible as the time you made me watch Soul Hunter and Infection.

Some people think that focusing on the relationships of the characters somehow makes a show a soap opera, but if that were true then shows like The Sopranos and Mad Men would also be considered soap operas, which they are certainly not.
Another show I've heard described as a "soap opera for men" because it focuses on relationships and has continuing storylines is HBO's Oz. That show is clearly NOT a soap opera! Unless you think daytime television does things like show full frontal male nudity, graphic depictions of prison rape, homosexual intercourse and massive amounts of violence (to name a few things). Just goes to show that most people think serial = soap opera.
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Old October 21 2011, 02:44 AM   #74
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I think that is a Don't Drop the Soap Opera. YIKES!
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Old October 21 2011, 02:54 AM   #75
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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Most definitely. One of the worst offenders in that camp is Homeward - where they literally sit back and watch as an entire civilization is extinguished and then treat the guest (who's even a Human) like he's scum for saving a few of the people. All of it is done under the justification that interference would have changed their culture. So, in other words, if it's a choice between a different culture and death, the lofty Federation will choose death for you and don't you dare question that wisdom.



Thank God they were willing to explore issues more fully on DS9.
Seconded. Or thirded, or whatever it is at this point

I had an occasion to watch Homeward recently, and it's almost shocking really, the extent to which the characters (and, apparently, the writers) are dominated by dogmatic thinking in that episode. It's really awkward and embarrassing.

A Man Alone is ok in parts. Like a lot of season 1, there's some good character material, but the show has no mojo yet. There's no real direction after Past Prologue until the writers get back to Kira and the Bajoran material late in the season.
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