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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 29 2012, 09:14 PM   #1651
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The runabout left in orbit over the Dominion internment camp being the most notable.
Even though it was brought up, I'm still disappointed the reason for that little 'runabout ex machina' wasn't explained.
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Old November 30 2012, 04:32 PM   #1652
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
An effective villain needs to challenge the hero, and Sloan is permitted to do that; not only directly but by rebutting Bashir's idealized worldview for the audience. Sloan is the villain who offers temptation, who speaks what sounds reasonable, and that's the sort of danger we need in the antagonist if we're going to be addressing the issues Section 31 is concerned with.
One of the things that I like about Sloan is that I don't quite see him as a villain even though I disagree with everything he stands for. All things considered, Sloan is no more a villain than Garak, both are willing to do unconscionable things for the preservation and enhancement of their peoples. But we've grown so used to Garak that we no longer consider him a villain, and because he's a Cardassian so we can disassociate him from his actions. But because Sloan is a human we find it more distasteful, because he's one of us. How could one of our kind possibly do such things?

It's a pity that the two characters never met, it would have made for a fascinating conversation.


In the Pale Moonlight (0)

This episode represents the low-point of DS9, the episode which proved that DS9 isn't real Star Trek. Murdering people is wrong, Gene Roddenberry taught us that back in the 60s, and now DS9 is ruining his legacy and shitting on his... urn. Also, Avery Brooks is a hammy actor and ruined the episode by staring at the camera. That's such a basic mistake that anyone would think the fool had never acted on television before. Finally, Garak is a terrible character. There's no depth to him, and he's a bit gay.



Sorry, I had to.


In the Pale Moonlight (*****)

This was probably the most predicable score I've ever awarded considering how many times in the past I've proclaimed this as my favourite episode of Star Trek. What makes this episode so fantastic is that it's a perfect combination of a vital arc episode, an honest moral dilemma, and a powerful character piece. You're lucky to find an episode of Star Trek that manages to focus on one of those elements and knocks it out of the park, maybe two. But all three? All of which work together perfectly and build to a sequence of twists that leave you glued to your seat? To a final monologue that has come to encapsulate the whole show for fans and haters alike? This episode manages all that, and that's why it is something really special.

One other great thing about this episode is that it does flashbacks right. Sometimes with Trek, flashbacks are just used as a cheap way of grabbing the audience's attention at the start of the episode. But in this episode the flashback and Sisko's monologues are a major part in what makes the episode so memorable. They set the tone from the very first scene, you know that something bad is about to happen but you don't know what. For a time you even begin to worry that Sisko's plan backfired and the Romulans declared war on the Federation. That whole sequence is wonderfully done.

The revelation of Garak's true plot is just so wonderfully Garak, and reveals that the character hasn't been softened at all by his time spent around humans. Garak is a magnificent bastard, he's always thinking several steps ahead, and now he's the saviour of the the Star Trek universe as we know it. Even Gene would begrudgingly respect Garak's plan, once he gets through with spinning in his... urn.

If there is one flaw with this episode it is that Sisko actually did live with it. This dark act that weighs so heavily upon his soul is lost with the record of Sisko's log. But I suppose there's not much more Sisko can do about the matter, he can't tell anyone what he did and he already explained the incident to the wall of his quarters. One of the sad things about this episode is that its contents can't really be addressed again.
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Old November 30 2012, 04:49 PM   #1653
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
In the Pale Moonlight (0)
Good to see you're still doing this joke. I've only been fooled by it once (in your B5 thread;, which I'm going through right now as I watch the show for the first time, you got me with your rating for "The Coming of Shadows"), but I still like it. Anyway, yeah, In The Pale Moonlight is brilliant.
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Old November 30 2012, 05:06 PM   #1654
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

When I saw that 0 rating my first thought was, "It's a faaaaaaaake!"

(ducks)
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Old November 30 2012, 05:10 PM   #1655
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
In the Pale Moonlight (0)
For a few moments my jaw dropped!

Totally agree with your review of the episode. It's perfect because it divides the viewers in two camps: one side LOVES it and the other side HATES it, that's always a sign of a great episode!
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Old November 30 2012, 06:02 PM   #1656
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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This episode manages all that, and that's why it is something really special.
Yep. Another testament to how good it really is, for me, is the fact that it can still be suspenseful, when I rewatch it, even though I know exactly what is going to happen.
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Old November 30 2012, 08:31 PM   #1657
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
An effective villain needs to challenge the hero, and Sloan is permitted to do that; not only directly but by rebutting Bashir's idealized worldview for the audience. Sloan is the villain who offers temptation, who speaks what sounds reasonable, and that's the sort of danger we need in the antagonist if we're going to be addressing the issues Section 31 is concerned with.
One of the things that I like about Sloan is that I don't quite see him as a villain even though I disagree with everything he stands for. All things considered, Sloan is no more a villain than Garak, both are willing to do unconscionable things for the preservation and enhancement of their peoples. But we've grown so used to Garak that we no longer consider him a villain, and because he's a Cardassian so we can disassociate him from his actions. But because Sloan is a human we find it more distasteful, because he's one of us. How could one of our kind possibly do such things?
Very good points, TGB. You've put your finger on something (or several things) quite important. I'll have to give it a think next time Section 31 crops up.
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Old November 30 2012, 08:42 PM   #1658
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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One of the minor flaws I have with this episode is that it's a bit late in the series to be introducing a group like Section 31.

There are quite a few things like that on DS9, where ideas don't always pop up in a timely fashion, or you think: I wish they had introduced this idea earlier, or I wish they had brought this up again at some point.

Somewhere in the ether there is a version of DS9 where the creators get to go back to season one and start over from scratch with all the ideas that cropped up over the course of seven seasons in mind... and that show is the platonic perfection of sci-fi shows

As it is, I can't really fault the writers for trying new things, introducing new concepts, etc., even if they sometimes feel a little awkward. It's far better than stagnation.

Section 31 is an awesome concept, and I wish we'd seen more of it. As it is, Inter Arma is a classic, and well worth introducing the idea on its own. Too bad about Extreme Measures, though. Inquisition is... good, though I wish they hadn't fallen back on the tired *virtual reality that dissipates* scenario here.
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Old December 1 2012, 12:23 AM   #1659
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

flemm wrote: View Post
Somewhere in the ether there is a version of DS9 where the creators get to go back to season one and start over from scratch with all the ideas that cropped up over the course of seven seasons in mind... and that show is the platonic perfection of sci-fi shows
Agreed. However, does that also imply that somewhere else in the ether is a version of DS9 set in a Risan resort in the rain, where the main character arcs involve Quark's casual sex-change operations, Dax's romance with a dull Meridianite, and Rumpulstiltskin participating in a Wadi games tournament?
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Old December 1 2012, 12:30 AM   #1660
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Agreed. However, does that also imly that somewhere else in the ether is a version of DS9 set in a Risan resort in the rain, where the main character arcs involve Quark's casual sex-change operations, Dax's romance with a dull Meridianite, and Rumpulstiltskin participating in a Wadi games tournament?
Probably so

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Old December 1 2012, 09:19 AM   #1661
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I haven't watched DS9 since it originally aired. A lot of the plots I don't fully remember, because it was so long ago. And I missed more than a few episodes, because I used to live in the middle of nowhere where TV reception sucked.

So I wasn't sure if I had already seen In The Pale Moonlight until Sisko gave the Romulan the data rod and said "All I could do was wait." Then "It's a faaaaaake." popped into my head.

I didn't remember a single thing about the episode but that line.

Toward the beginning of the ep, I was worried the big moral dilema was going to be that the data rod ruse worked, which would have been really lame. Yeah, it's wrong to lie, but that kind of thing wouldn't be worth all the gravity Sisko was bringing to the situation.

I was impressed at the end that the dilema turned out to more than weighty enough to warrant Sisko's guilt dump.
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Old December 1 2012, 09:41 AM   #1662
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

My father, who never warmed up to DS9 much, happened to watch this episode recently, as it was included in the Captain's Collection. He was so impressed by it that he actually 'fanboy gushed' to me about it!
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Old December 2 2012, 03:57 AM   #1663
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

You got me with the "fake" review, I'll confess!

I was fully ready to tell you how full of it you were, until I just felt silly once I read a bit more!
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Old December 3 2012, 02:45 PM   #1664
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
TheGodBen wrote: View Post
In the Pale Moonlight (0)
Good to see you're still doing this joke. I've only been fooled by it once (in your B5 thread;, which I'm going through right now as I watch the show for the first time, you got me with your rating for "The Coming of Shadows"), but I still like it. Anyway, yeah, In The Pale Moonlight is brilliant.
I had completely forgotten about The Coming of Shadows review and had to reread it to figure out what you were talking about. I probably shouldn't laugh at my own jokes as much as I did rereading that.

I think my favourite fake review was the time I gave Voyager's Survival Instinct six stars purely because it was written by Ron Moore.

flemm wrote: View Post
Inquisition is... good, though I wish they hadn't fallen back on the tired *virtual reality that dissipates* scenario here.
That's something I considered, but it didn't bother me too much because the inquisition into Bashir by "Starfleet" was still real and led up to a killer revelation. If it had been revealed to have been a ploy by the Dominion instead then it wouldn't have held up nearly as well.


His Way (*½)

Ira Behr wrote:
The quality of the show is not apparent to everyone, and that's really, really sad. Because that show is as perfect an episode as we ever did. You would be hard-pressed to find moments that don't work. It does exactly what it's supposed to. As loony as the show might seem, it's a real triumph. I'm not saying it's the only triumph by any means, but it's the one that's most masked, I guess, the one that's toughest for the audience to recognize.
Okay, I have a lot of respect for Ira Behr, but reading that quote on MA left me with the feeling that he doesn't quite get the complaints against this episode. Structurally, the episode is fine, it's a good romantic-comedy that's well-made and you're not going to see me complain about that stuff. There's two main problems. Firstly, the Odo/Kira relationship doesn't lend itself well to the romantic-comedy genre, and having the two characters hook up in such a story is an unsatisfying climax to that arc. It worked well for Worf and Jadzia because that's the sort of characters they are. Kira and Odo are different, overwrought melodrama suits them better for whatever reason.

The second problem is that the episode is overindulgent. 60s lounge singers aren't my thing, they're well before my time. I have nothing against that sort of music, it's just that it's niche genre to my generation. Frankly, just like I don't want to sit through an episode of Star Trek focusing on speed metal, I don't want to sit through an episode of Star Trek focusing on 60s lounge singers. One musical number? I'm okay with that. Two musical numbers? I start checking my watch. This episode has four musical numbers, and that's entirely too much for me. If you're a fan of 60s lounge singers, this episode was meant for you, and I sincerely hope you enjoy it. But this episode wasn't written to suit my tastes.

VIC: Sit down. Relax. Take a couple of deep breaths. You do that and everything you want will come to you.
ODO: That's all it takes?
VIC: Try it. Go on.
So a being that doesn't need to breath advises another being that doesn't need to breath that the key to relaxing is simulating an unnatural process for both of them. Okay.

VIC: Do you know how difficult it was for me to get a holographic image of Major Kira? Lucky for you, Julian used her image in one of his spy programmes, though it did take me an hour to get rid of the Russian accent.
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use someone's image without consent for use in a dating sim. And if it's not, it should be.

KIRA: I'm trying to meditate.
VIC: And I don't mean to interrupt.
KIRA: Good. Then leave.
Why is Kira meditating in a holosuite? We've seen her meditate in her quarters and in the temple, but never before in the holosuite. Does she not realise that a half-hour ago there was a Benzite in that same room getting a blow-job from a holographic Vulcan princess? I can hardly imagine a less appropriate place to meditate.

VIC: I need to talk to you. I want you to come to the holosuite tonight.
ODO: Why?
VIC: I've done a complete overhaul on the Lola hologram or should I say the Kira hologram? I'm telling you, Odo, you're going to think she's the real thing. She walks like Kira, she talks like Kira.
Odo, you're a policeman with a hard-on for justice, surely you know how wrong it is to secretly date a hologram of your best friend.

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Old December 3 2012, 08:49 PM   #1665
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

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Kira and Odo are different, overwrought melodrama suits them better for whatever reason.

Yeah, Chimera is the Kira/Odo romance episode that really works, and it works on a completely different level. I'm not sure it's "melodrama" exactly, but the identity crisis and existential issues are taken seriously.

I think it's because as a *couple* from the standard perspective, Kira/Odo doesn't work at all and makes no sense, but if you make it about something deeper, like the two characters' changing identity, then it really works and can become almost profound at times. For Odo, it's about being loved for who he really is (which His Way runs away from, but Chimera doesn't), and for Kira it's about accepting and loving that which is most alien (when originally she was a bit close-minded and even xenophobic).

The writers really had to go in that direction to justify the decision to finally get these two together and, thankfully, that does happen in season 7.

As for His Way, there's an idea in this episode that isn't bad at all, and that's Odo trying to "shapeshift" in a different way than usual, i.e. become something he's not. Some of the scenes where Odo is talking to the real Kira without realizing it are actually pretty effective, I think. Kind of painful to watch. Anyway, the whole tactic doesn't really work, but it's still the catalyst for the two of them getting together.

On the one hand, I can actually see why Ira Behr likes the episode: it's different from what Trek usually does, and I think it does work, if you like this sort of thing. For the most part, I don't.

I agree with the over-indulgent complaint. Late DS9 has some problems with that overall.

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