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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 20 2011, 11:13 PM   #1
Herbert
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Warp 13

I was watching TNG "All Good Things..." again last night and noticed that both the U.S.S. Pasteur and the refit U.S.S. Enterprise could travel at Warp 13 in 2395. What about the Warp 10 speed limit on the revised Cochrane Warp Scale? How did both ships pass Warp 10 barrier?
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Old September 20 2011, 11:29 PM   #2
Brandonv
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Re: Warp 13

I don't know if there is any canon answer, but the most common explanation I have heard, is that the warp scale was revised again. For example, what used to be warp 10 might now be referred to as warp 20. So instead of saying something like, "Warp 9.99885, engage!", they could simply say, "Warp 13". I like this explanation because the warp 10 limit would still be true.
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Old September 20 2011, 11:39 PM   #3
MacLeod
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Re: Warp 13

I'd go with Brandonv's reason. After all the 1701 once did Warp 14.1, and evidence from the 24th C Trek's is that the scale under went a revision to have Warp 10 as a theortical infinite speeed. With the Warp 13 line in "All Good Things" it seems it under went another revision.

Perhaps as the maximum sustainbable crusing speeds incresead such as the Intrepid Class stated Sustainbable crusing speed of Warp 9.975, It made sense in order to make it easier to revise the scale once again,.
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Old September 20 2011, 11:41 PM   #4
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Warp 13

Outside of the TNG technical manuals, warp speed never changed. Thus, in canon, warp 13 is just two warp factors above the warp 11 the TOS Enterprise reached in "The Changeling".

Voyager's "Threshold" throws a spanner in the works.... but that's just Voyager being Voyager
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Old September 20 2011, 11:47 PM   #5
The Badger
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Re: Warp 13

Also, in TNG's 'Where No One Has Gone Before' LaForge clearly states tha the Enterprise is passing warp 10.
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Old September 21 2011, 12:05 AM   #6
C.E. Evans
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Re: Warp 13

^^^
And yet in that same episode, Data says the ship's actual velocity never moved past warp one-point-five all along, suggesting perhaps that it was space (or whatever phenomena caused by the Traveller) that was moving off the chart...
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Old September 21 2011, 12:38 AM   #7
Sandoval
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Re: Warp 13

That portion of All Good Things was set in the future. An essentially throwaway reference intended to make things sound more futuristic.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old September 21 2011, 01:34 AM   #8
Herbert
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Re: Warp 13

Sandoval wrote: View Post
That portion of All Good Things was set in the future. An essentially throwaway reference intended to make things sound more futuristic.

Nothing more, nothing less.
Gene Roddenberry had imposed the Warp 10 limit as "infinite speed" at the beginning of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Should we ignore the references to Warp 13 in "All Good Things..."?

Could the Warp 13 figure be evidence that Starfleet starships in the future use transwarp or quantum slipstream drives to get past the Warp 10 barrier? Or we could speculate that the Warp Factor chart was revised again sometime before 2395.
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Old September 21 2011, 01:46 AM   #9
Sandoval
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Re: Warp 13

Herbert wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry had imposed the Warp 10 limit as "infinite speed" at the beginning of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Should we ignore the references to Warp 13 in "All Good Things..."?
As I've said, it's a throwaway reference used because thirteen is bigger than nine, thus conveying the impression to the viewing audience that the ships in the All Good Things 'anti-time' future were faster than the ships from the All Good Things present.

There's no real mystery or foreshadowing to be found here, just a bigger number being used by the writers to easily indicate faster ships in the future.
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Old September 22 2011, 10:28 AM   #10
Admiral Shran
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Re: Warp 13

Herbert wrote: View Post
Could the Warp 13 figure be evidence that Starfleet starships in the future use transwarp or quantum slipstream drives to get past the Warp 10 barrier?
I like this retcon the best. Starfleet in this alternate future is using either transwarp or quantum slipstream drives and still using warp terminology.

But, Sandoval is right. It was just a throw-away reference that now needs to be explained away.
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Old September 22 2011, 11:55 AM   #11
Timo
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Re: Warp 13

Then what would be the point of having TrekBBS?

The current technobabble on warp factors 1 through 9 is that they are peaks on a sawtooth curve contrasting speed against the theoretical power expenditure of warp drive (that is, the power cost that is independent of engine type; engine inefficiencies supposedly come on top of that). This is why it's better to fly at warp 7 than at warp 6.8, and why virtually nobody chooses a non-integer warp factor if their ship is rated for the next integer value.

Above warp 9, the curve doesn't feature further sawteeth. But few starships go past warp 9 in the TNG era. Once this becomes more commonplace, Trek science may well find more of these power minimum sawteeth, and label them warp 10, 11, 12, 13 and so forth. And if, say, the sawtooth that gets the label "warp 17" again seems to be the highest one in this next cluster of teeth, engineers may decide to call infinite speed "warp 18". Until one more cluster of power minima is found...

This is a great analogy to things happening in real science: we're finding patterns in how elements are put together, and every time we think we have figured out what a pattern should look like, there's still a gnawing feeling that something new will emerge and force a rethink if we just expend greater energies, synthesize heavier elements, introduce more terms into our formulae...

Of course, TOS ships weren't even doing warp 8 on a regular basis, so it's quite natural to think that they had a very fuzzy idea about the structure of the power minima series. Engine inefficiencies may have hidden the structure of the higher minima so that the TOS idea of warp 8 didn't really match the eight minimum, and TOS warp factors from 9 up were all mucked up and didn't correspond to real power minima at all. By the 24th century, this at least was remedied. But only up till warp 9, above which UFP science could only verify the absence of minima up to certain speeds (say, warp 9.91) after which engine inefficiencies again prevented empirical observations.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 22 2011, 06:47 PM   #12
Sandoval
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Re: Warp 13

Timo wrote: View Post
Then what would be the point of having TrekBBS?

The current technobabble on warp factors 1 through 9 is that they are peaks on a sawtooth curve contrasting speed against the theoretical power expenditure of warp drive (that is, the power cost that is independent of engine type; engine inefficiencies supposedly come on top of that). This is why it's better to fly at warp 7 than at warp 6.8, and why virtually nobody chooses a non-integer warp factor if their ship is rated for the next integer value.

Above warp 9, the curve doesn't feature further sawteeth. But few starships go past warp 9 in the TNG era. Once this becomes more commonplace, Trek science may well find more of these power minimum sawteeth, and label them warp 10, 11, 12, 13 and so forth. And if, say, the sawtooth that gets the label "warp 17" again seems to be the highest one in this next cluster of teeth, engineers may decide to call infinite speed "warp 18". Until one more cluster of power minima is found...

This is a great analogy to things happening in real science: we're finding patterns in how elements are put together, and every time we think we have figured out what a pattern should look like, there's still a gnawing feeling that something new will emerge and force a rethink if we just expend greater energies, synthesize heavier elements, introduce more terms into our formulae...

Of course, TOS ships weren't even doing warp 8 on a regular basis, so it's quite natural to think that they had a very fuzzy idea about the structure of the power minima series. Engine inefficiencies may have hidden the structure of the higher minima so that the TOS idea of warp 8 didn't really match the eight minimum, and TOS warp factors from 9 up were all mucked up and didn't correspond to real power minima at all. By the 24th century, this at least was remedied. But only up till warp 9, above which UFP science could only verify the absence of minima up to certain speeds (say, warp 9.91) after which engine inefficiencies again prevented empirical observations.

Timo Saloniemi

Phew!
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Old September 22 2011, 06:50 PM   #13
Timo
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Re: Warp 13

You forgot the "to be sure".

Timo Saloniemi
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Old September 22 2011, 06:57 PM   #14
Sandoval
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Re: Warp 13

Timo wrote: View Post
You forgot the "to be sure".

Timo Saloniemi
To be sure, I plan on using it sparingly.
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Old September 22 2011, 08:26 PM   #15
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Re: Warp 13

Though I know it was in things writers bible from pretty much the start is there a single TV episode of either TNG or DS9 broadcast before All Good Things that says going faster than Warp 10 is impossible? Or was everyone's favourite Voyager episode the first one to bring it onscreen?

But yeah, for an in universe reason either assume they've done the equivalent of going metric on it, or that some brand new scientific discovery has found out it isn't impossible after all.
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