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Old October 18 2011, 12:09 PM   #16
Isis
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Sorry I let the time get away from me, Captrek, but here's my list:

Code:
8.5 Where No Man Has Gone Before
9 The Corbomite Maneuver
7.5 Mudd's Women
8.5 The Enemy Within
9 The Man Trap
8 The Naked Time
7.5 Charlie X
10 Balance of Terror
9 What Are Little Girls Made Of?
9 Dagger of the Mind
7 Miri
8.5 The Conscience of the King
8.5 The Galileo Seven
8.5 Court Martial
10 The Menagerie, Part I
9 The Menagerie, Part II
5 Shore Leave
7.5 The Squire of Gothos
8.5 Arena
5.5 The Alternative Factor
8.5 Tomorrow is Yesterday
7.5 The Return of the Archons
8.5 A Taste of Armageddon
7.5 Space Seed
8.5 This Side of Paradise
8.5 The Devil in the Dark
9 Errand of Mercy
10 The City on the Edge of Forever
7 Operation -- Annihilate!
5.5 Catspaw
7 Metamorphosis
7 Friday's Child
7 Who Mourns for Adonais?
10 Amok Time
10 The Doomsday Machine
8.5 Wolf in the Fold
8.5 The Changeling
7 The Apple
10 Mirror, Mirror
7 The Deadly Years
7 I, Mudd
9.5 The Trouble with Tribbles
7 Bread and Circuses
8.5 Journey to Babel
7 A Private Little War
7.5 The Gamesters of Triskelion
7 Obsession
7 The Immunity Syndrome
8 A Piece of the Action
7 By Any Other Name
7 Return to Tomorrow
6 Patterns of Force
7 The Ultimate Computer
7 The Omega Glory
8.5 Assignment: Earth
7.5 Spectre of the Gun
8.5 Elaan of Troyius
5.5 The Paradise Syndrome
8 The Enterprise Incident
4.5 And the Children Shall Lead
7.5 Spock's Brain
5.5 Is There in Truth No Beauty?
8 The Empath
8.5 The Tholian Web
5 For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
8.5 Day of the Dove
5 Plato's Stepchildren
7.5 Wink of an Eye
7.5 That Which Survives
7.5 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
5 Whom Gods Destroy
5 The Mark of Gideon
5 The Lights of Zetar
5 The Cloud Minders
5.5 The Way to Eden
6.5 Requiem for Methuselah
7.5 The Savage Curtain
8 All Our Yesterdays
5.5 Turnabout Intruder
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Old October 19 2011, 08:45 AM   #17
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Better late than never, Isis. Thanks for participating!

Hopefully ballots will continue to come in.
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Old October 20 2011, 12:48 AM   #18
Isis
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

You're welcome, captrek. Once I finally got to it, rating all the eps went pretty fast, taking maybe about 10 minutes.
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Old October 20 2011, 04:27 AM   #19
Creepy Critter
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Hey, captrek, here's my list.

Code:
100 The Doomsday Machine
100 The City on the Edge of Forever
100 Journey to Babel
100 Mirror, Mirror
98  The Ultimate Computer
96  The Devil in the Dark
95  Court Martial
95  The Conscience of the King
94  Arena
83  Is There in Truth No Beauty?
83  Elaan of Troyius
80  By Any Other Name
85  Obsession
80  A Private Little War
85  Metamorphosis
85  Errand of Mercy
85  A Taste of Armageddon
88  The Menagerie, Part I
88  The Menagerie, Part II
96  The Naked Time
92  Charlie X
100 Balance of Terror
98  Amok Time
100 Where No Man Has Gone Before
95  The Corbomite Maneuver
70  Day of the Dove
75  The Enemy Within
66  The Man Trap
80  Dagger of the Mind
80  Shore Leave
80  The Squire of Gothos
75  Space Seed
70  This Side of Paradise
66  Friday's Child
60  Who Mourns for Adonais?
75  The Changeling
75  The Trouble with Tribbles
66  The Immunity Syndrome
60  Assignment: Earth
75  The Tholian Web
70  Wink of an Eye
55  That Which Survives
50  The Way to Eden
69  Requiem for Methuselah
55  All Our Yesterdays
54  Mudd's Women
20  What Are Little Girls Made Of?
18  The Galileo Seven
35  Tomorrow is Yesterday
28  Operation -- Annihilate!
15  The Deadly Years
30  The Paradise Syndrome
30  The Enterprise Incident
18  For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
20  Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
 2  Miri
 2  The Alternative Factor
 2  The Return of the Archons
 2  Catspaw
 2  Wolf in the Fold
 2  The Apple
 3  I, Mudd
 1  Bread and Circuses
 5  The Gamesters of Triskelion
 3  A Piece of the Action
 2  Return to Tomorrow
 2  Patterns of Force
 1  The Omega Glory
 4  Spectre of the Gun
 1  And the Children Shall Lead
 6  Spock's Brain
 2  The Empath
 1  Plato's Stepchildren
 2  Whom Gods Destroy
 1  The Mark of Gideon
 1  The Lights of Zetar
 2  The Cloud Minders
 2  The Savage Curtain
 2  Turnabout Intruder
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Old October 22 2011, 03:19 AM   #20
Trek or Treat!
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

It feels silly to post results of the vote after only four ballots, but since ballots aren’t coming in, I’m going to anyway. If more ballots come in, I’ll update the results.

Due to the large number of candidates (79) and very small number of voters (4), it is first necessary to have a little sidebar about how ties affect the Schulze method.
Imagine there are three candidates—Alice, Bob, and Charlie—and two voters ranking the candidates. One voter says:
Alice > Bob > Charlie
and the other says:
Charlie > Alice > Bob
The voters agree that Alice is better than Bob. However the Schulze method cannot determine, on the basis of these two voters, whether Charlie is better than Alice, worse than Bob, or somewhere in between. Hence Charlie has an ambiguous relationship with each of the other two candidates: it neither defeats, nor is defeated by, either of them.

If there are no ambiguous relationships, the Schulze method produces a complete ordering of candidates. If there are ambiguous relationships, it produces a partial ordering, represented as a directed acyclic graph (or more precisely, Hasse diagram). If there are a lot of ambiguous relationships, the graph can look like a tangled mess of spaghetti.
As you might imagine, with 79 candidates and 4 voters, the result is rather tangled, although it’s getting less tangled with each additional ballot.


Here are the results after one ballot:




After two ballots:




After three ballots:




After four ballots:




Y’know, I think that last one is actually kinda pretty.
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Old October 25 2011, 11:59 AM   #21
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Those pics in the previous post are clickable thumbnails, in case that wasn’t clear.

Anybody care to opine as to why this thread was such a spectacular failure, when other episode-rating threads get much more participation?

Is it a marketing failure?

Is rating all 79 episodes too much work? You only have to rate the ones you want to rate, and with the truncate feature you can just name your favorites like in a top 10 thread.
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Old October 25 2011, 12:23 PM   #22
Creepy Critter
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

I snarfed the pics. I've studied the ranking, and it's really interesting.

Yes, it sounds like a lot of work. If I'm a typical geek, then I suspect geeks will tend to want to do this sort of thing perfectly or not at all.

I probably ended up spending about 30 minutes on the ranking, not all in one sitting. First I sorted the episodes into quartiles, then I ranked them within each quartile. I only finished when I overcame my instinct not to do a perfect ranking, so as not to leave you hanging (but I think I did it pretty accurately, actually).

For me, developing a perfect ranking would require considering all 79*78/2=3081 comparisons to decide which episode is better in each pair of episodes. To look at it another way, that's answering 39 times as many questions as assigning each episode a number. Not only that, that relation would have to be checked to make sure it's acyclic, more work, and only then topologically sorted. I seriously doubt everyone would instinctively want to do that, but I suspect that's nevertheless indicative of just how much work could be involved, either explicitly or implicitly.
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Old October 25 2011, 01:14 PM   #23
Isis
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

captrek wrote: View Post
...Anybody care to opine as to why this thread was such a spectacular failure, when other episode-rating threads get much more participation?...
Maybe it's an idea whose time hasn't come yet.

That said, I don't know why the initial response to this thread came from just a few posters. To me, it's an interesting idea, and if one does a "quick and dirty" rating like I did, the time investment is minimal. (And by "quick and dirty," I mean just quickly give your first impression for each rating.) I wish I could offer something more constructive, but I can't at this point.

Finally, on the diagrams themselves, I'll note how the shows seem to be "congregating together" by color (with yellow, blue, and red representing Seasons 1, 2, and 3, respectively?). Then again, with the results of only four people so far, maybe it's too early to make any generalizations.

In any case, captrek, at least all the cool people voted.
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Old October 25 2011, 09:38 PM   #24
Trek or Treat!
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Isis' Evil Twin: Yes, the colors represent seasons. I put them in there to make the graphs more visually striking, but as you noticed it also tells a sad story of declining quality from season to season (at least in the minds of these four voters).

Another thing that stands out to me is how “clean” the top of the graph is. The top 23 episodes (from The City on the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror through This Side of Paradise) make a simple, very legible subgraph. Below that, it gets messy.


CarbonCopy: You present an interesting hypothesis, that the enormous expressive power of the ballot chased off a board full of perfectionists who would rather not participate at all than participate without using all that expressive power. However, my impression is that we do not have a board populated entirely or almost entirely by perfectionists, so I doubt the hypothesis.

I think it’s a marketing failure.

I think the ballot may have intimidated some people. I intended for it to be very simple, but maybe it’s not as simple as I hoped, or I failed to effectively convey its simplicity.


If I were to do it over again, I would emphasize up front that the requirements for participation are almost nil. It’s just an invitation to say whatever you care to say about whatever episodes you care to say something about. If you want to rate all the episodes, fine. If you want to rate some of them, fine. If you just want to list your favorites, fine.

I would not require participants to use a properly formatted ballot. It makes my job a little easier when they do, but if somebody simply posts a top-ten list or whatever, I can convert it to a properly formatted ballot. It doesn’t take much time. I, for one, find the ballot format to be very intuitive and easy to use, but then I’m the one who defined it, so I would, wouldn’t I?

I would put a bunch of exclamation marks in the thread title. I don’t know why, but it seems to help.
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Old October 25 2011, 10:07 PM   #25
Creepy Critter
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Another thing that stands out to me is how “clean” the top of the graph is. The top 23 episodes (from The City on the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror through This Side of Paradise) make a simple, very legible subgraph. Below that, it gets messy.
Yes, this is interesting.

my impression is that we do not have a board populated entirely or almost entirely by perfectionists
This is probably a good thing. We'd be at each others' throats even more!

if somebody simply posts a top-ten list or whatever, I can convert it to a properly formatted ballot
Yes. So, unless the user said they were in order, you would assign the ten episodes listed a 2 and every other episode a 1, right? Whereas, otherwise of course you'd assign them 11 down to 2, respectively and as appropriate, and every other episode a 1?

You know, for shits and giggles, you could just peruse the top ten threads, format ballots yourself from those posts, and then post the results here.
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Old October 26 2011, 12:05 AM   #26
Trek or Treat!
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

CarbonCopy wrote: View Post
You know, for shits and giggles, you could just peruse the top ten threads, format ballots yourself from those posts, and then post the results here.
I like that idea. Good suggestion.

I’ve made ballots for the posts in these two threads. I replaced the “truncate” feature (which nobody had used) with an “all others” feature to accommodate the “sandwich” thread.

KirksStuntMan was a little difficult to deal with because he posted in both threads and his two posts were not consistent. I took my best stab at a composite.

Here are the ballots from those two threads.


Admiral Shran:
Code:
100  Journey to Babel
 90  The Conscience of the King
 80  Amok Time
 70  The Devil in the Dark
 60  Arena
 50  The City on the Edge of Forever
 40  The Enterprise Incident
 30  Balance of Terror
 20  Space Seed
 10  The Doomsday Machine
  0  all others

BillJ:
Code:
 1  A Taste of Armageddon
 1  The Omega Glory
 1  All Our Yesterdays
 1  Where No Man Has Gone Before
 1  The Doomsday Machine
 1  The Ultimate Computer
 1  Dagger of the Mind
 1  This Side of Paradise
 1  A Private Little War
 0  all others

Desmondidae:
Code:
 1  The City on the Edge of Forever
 1  Space Seed
 1  The Trouble with Tribbles
 1  Mirror, Mirror
 1  The Doomsday Machine
 1  The Devil in the Dark
 1  The Enterprise Incident
 1  Journey to Babel
 1  Amok Time
 1  The Ultimate Computer
 1  Dagger of the Mind
 1  The Tholian Web
 1  Balance of Terror
 1  A Taste of Armageddon
 0  all others
-1  Spock's Brain
-1  The Way to Eden
-1  The Omega Glory
-1  And the Children Shall Lead
-1  That Which Survives
-1  The Alternative Factor
-1  The Gamesters of Triskelion
-1  The Mark of Gideon
-1  Miri
-1  The Lights of Zetar
-1  Plato's Stepchildren
-1  Let That Be Your Last Battlefield

Dorian Thompson:
Code:
 1  The Doomsday Machine
 1  Journey to Babel
 1  Balance of Terror
 1  The Empath
 1  The City on the Edge of Forever
 1  The Trouble with Tribbles
 1  The Tholian Web
 1  Mirror, Mirror
 1  Charlie X
 1  The Naked Time
 1  Obsession
 1  Amok Time
 1  The Galileo Seven
 0  all others
-1  And the Children Shall Lead
-1  The Alternative Factor
-1  The Way to Eden
-1  The Mark of Gideon
-1  For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
-1  The Gamesters of Triskelion
-1  Dagger of the Mind
-1  The Squire of Gothos
-1  The Conscience of the King
-1  Spock's Brain

KirksStuntMan:
Code:
100  Mirror, Mirror
 90  The Doomsday Machine
 80  Shore Leave
 70  Elaan of Troyius
 60  Metamorphosis
 50  Requiem for Methuselah
 40  The Tholian Web
 30  The Empath
 10  Obsession
  2  The City on the Edge of Forever
  1  What Are Little Girls Made Of?
  0  all others
 -1  And the Children Shall Lead
 -1  Who Mourns for Adonais?
 -1  Wolf in the Fold
 -1  The Apple
 -1  I, Mudd
 -1  Bread and Circuses
 -1  A Private Little War
 -1  A Piece of the Action
 -1  Patterns of Force
 -1  Plato's Stepchildren

Space Therapist:
Code:
 1  The City on the Edge of Forever
 1  Space Seed
 1  The Trouble with Tribbles
 1  Mirror, Mirror
 1  The Doomsday Machine
 1  Journey to Babel
 1  Amok Time
 1  The Immunity Syndrome
 1  Balance of Terror
 1  The Way to Eden
 1  The Lights of Zetar
 1  Patterns of Force
 1  Tomorrow is Yesterday
 1  All Our Yesterdays
 1  The Deadly Years
 0  all others
-1  Return to Tomorrow
-1  Wolf in the Fold
-1  Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
-1  That Which Survives
-1  The Mark of Gideon
-1  Miri
-1  Catspaw
-1  Charlie X
-1  The Squire of Gothos
-1  The Gamesters of Triskelion
-1  Wink of an Eye
-1  Turnabout Intruder
-1  Plato's Stepchildren
-1  And the Children Shall Lead

Vasquez Rots:
Code:
100  Amok Time
 90  Bread and Circuses
 80  The Conscience of the King
 70  The City on the Edge of Forever
 60  A Taste of Armageddon
 50  Journey to Babel
 40  The Corbomite Maneuver
 30  Errand of Mercy
 20  Who Mourns for Adonais?
 10  The Paradise Syndrome
  0  all others

VonFrank:
Code:
100  The Doomsday Machine
 90  The Ultimate Computer
 80  The Trouble with Tribbles
 70  The Enterprise Incident
 60  Balance of Terror
 50  Assignment: Earth
 40  The Tholian Web
 30  Elaan of Troyius
 20  Space Seed
 10  Tomorrow is Yesterday
  0  all others

Windows_Me_Guy:
Code:
100  Metamorphosis
 90  The Conscience of the King
 80  This Side of Paradise
 70  Mirror, Mirror
 60  The Doomsday Machine
 50  Bread and Circuses
 40  The Paradise Syndrome
 30  Spectre of the Gun
 20  The Man Trap
 10  That Which Survives
  0  all others

cmlmc1296:
Code:
100  The Doomsday Machine
 90  Mirror, Mirror
 80  The Enterprise Incident
 70  Balance of Terror
 60  Shore Leave
 50  The City on the Edge of Forever
 40  The Trouble with Tribbles
 30  Journey to Babel
 20  The Ultimate Computer
 10  The Tholian Web
  0  all others

plynch:
Code:
 1  The Devil in the Dark
 1  The Doomsday Machine
 1  Is There in Truth No Beauty?
 1  A Taste of Armageddon
 1  Amok Time
 1  Spectre of the Gun
 1  The Way to Eden
 1  The Conscience of the King
 1  Errand of Mercy
 0  all others
-1  That Which Survives
-1  Mudd's Women
-1  I, Mudd
-1  A Piece of the Action
-1  The Immunity Syndrome
-1  Catspaw

roger1999:
Code:
90  The City on the Edge of Forever
80  The Menagerie, Part I
80  The Menagerie, Part II
70  The Naked Time
60  Balance of Terror
50  The Empath
40  This Side of Paradise
30  Shore Leave
20  Journey to Babel
10  Mirror, Mirror
 0  all others
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Old October 26 2011, 12:07 AM   #27
Trek or Treat!
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

I mentioned earlier that the graph was getting less tangled with each additional ballot. Sadly, that pattern has ceased to hold. After 16 ballots, the graph is as tangled as it was after 4.

The 12 new ballots are from a thread for listing your favorites and a thread for listing your favorites and least favorites. I probably shouldn’t be surprised that they have done little to clarify the picture with regard to middle-quality episodes, which is where most of the tangling is. Plus the fact that we still have nearly five times as many candidates as voters.

Here are the results after 16 ballots:

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Old October 26 2011, 12:29 AM   #28
Creepy Critter
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

That's totally awesome. It's totally untangled at the top and bottom.
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Old October 26 2011, 12:31 AM   #29
Gojira
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

Here is my revised list. Best is a score of 5 and the worst is a 0.

Code:
5	The Cage	 
4	 Where No Man Has Gone Before	 	
5	 The Corbomite Maneuver	 
3	 Mudd's Women	 
3	 The Enemy Within	 	
3	 The Man Trap	  
4	 The Naked Time	  
0	 Charlie X	 	
5	 Balance of Terror	 	 
2	 What are Little Girls Made of?	 	 
3	 Dagger of the Mind	 	 
1	 Miri	 	
1	 The Conscience of the King	 	 
4	 The Galileo Seven	 	 
4	 Court Martial	 	 
5	 The Menagerie, Part One		 
5	 The Menagerie, Part Two	
4	 Shore Leave	 12/29/66	
0	 The Squire of Gothos	 	
5	 Arena	 	 
0	 The Alternative Factor	  
5	 Tomorrow is Yesterday		 
4	 The Return of the Archons	 	 
5	 A Taste of Armageddon	 	
5	 Space Seed		 
5	 This Side of Paradise	 	 
5	 The Devil in the Dark	 	 
5	 Errand of Mercy	 	
5	 The City on the Edge of Forever		
3	 Operation: Annihilate!

Season 2.

0	 Catspaw	 
5	 Metamorphosis	 	 
4	 Friday´s Child	 	 
4	 Who Mourns for Adonais?	 	 
5	 Amok Time	 	 
5	 The Doomsday Machine	 
0	 Wolf in the Fold		 
5	 The Changeling	 	 
4	 The Apple	 	 
5	 Mirror, Mirror	 	
5	 The Deadly Years	 	 
3	 I, Mudd		 
5	 The Trouble With Tribbles	 
3	 Bread and Circuses		 
5	 Journey to Babel	 	 
3	 A Private Little War	 	 
2	 The Gamesters of Triskelion	 	 
1	 Obsession	 	
5	 The Immunity Syndrome		 
4	 A Piece of the Action	 	 
4	 By Any Other Name		 
2	 Return to Tomorrow	 	 
5	 Patterns of Force	  
5	 The Ultimate Computer	 	 
3	 The Omega Glory	 	 
4	 Assignment: Earth		 

Season 3
	
4	 Spectre of the Gun	 	 
4	 Elaan of Troyius	 	 
5	 The Paradise Syndrome	 	
5	 The Enterprise Incident	 	 
0	 And the Children Shall Lead	 	 
4	 Spock's Brain	 	 
3	 Is There in Truth no Beauty?	 	 
3	 The Empath	 	
5	 The Tholian Web	 	 
4	 For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky	 	 
4	 Day of the Dove	 	 
0	 Plato´s Stepchildren	 	 
1	 Wink of an Eye	 	 
0	 That Which Survives	 	 
3	 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield	 	
4	 Whom Gods Destroy	 	 
2	 The Mark of Gideon	 	 
5	 The Lights of Zetar	 	 
4	 The Cloud Minders	 	 
5	 The Way to Eden	 	 
5	 Requiem for Methuselah	 	 
4	 The Savage Curtain	 	
5	 All Our Yesterdays	 	 
1	 Turnabout Intruder
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Old October 26 2011, 12:53 AM   #30
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Re: The ultimate episode ranking thread

CarbonCopy wrote: View Post
That's totally awesome. It's totally untangled at the top and bottom.
You noted that 79 candidates have 3081 pairwise contests. I can’t reasonably list them all. However, the top 8 have only 28 pairwise contests among them. Here’s how they work out (not including Space Therapist’s revised list):
The Doomsday Machine:
WINS 6- 4 against The City on the Edge of Forever
WINS 6- 3 against Balance of Terror
WINS 7- 4 against Journey to Babel
WINS 6- 3 against Mirror, Mirror
WINS 7- 2 against Amok Time
WINS 10- 1 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 10- 2 against The Devil in the Dark
The numbers don’t add up to 16 because not every voter expresses a preference between every pair of episodes.
The City on the Edge of Forever:
WINS 4-2 against Balance of Terror
WINS 5-1 against Journey to Babel
WINS 5-3 against Mirror, Mirror
WINS 5-3 against Amok Time
WINS 8-1 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 9-2 against The Devil in the Dark
Balance of Terror:
WINS 4-2 against Journey to Babel
WINS 5-3 against Mirror, Mirror
WINS 5-3 against Amok Time
WINS 6-1 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 8-2 against The Devil in the Dark
Journey to Babel:
WINS 5-4 against Mirror, Mirror
WINS 5-3 against Amok Time
WINS 5-3 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 8-1 against The Devil in the Dark
Mirror, Mirror:
WINS 6-4 against Amok Time
WINS 7-2 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 9-3 against The Devil in the Dark
Amok Time:
WINS 6-3 against The Trouble with Tribbles
WINS 7-1 against The Devil in the Dark
The Trouble with Tribbles:
WINS 5-3 against The Devil in the Dark
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