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Old October 23 2011, 08:37 PM   #1
Transk53
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Dreadnought

I am wondering if in the Cannon, Starfleet commisioned a Dreadnought. In various mods and games, I believe this type of battlewagon has been mentioned. In an old game called Birth Of The Federation, the Sovereign was termed Dreadnought. I seem to remember an episode of DS9 where a rather large looking Ship was in orbit of DS9. It looked like a Battlewagon to me. I know the Sovereign was originally designed to be a heavy hitter, but that ship kind of looked like an Excelsior on steroids.
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Old October 23 2011, 10:25 PM   #2
Albertese
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Re: Dreadnought

I don't believe any kind of Dreadnought was ever mentioned on screen. It all began with the Franz Joseph technical manual. An image of the ship from that book might have appeared ever so briefly in the background of a TOS movie but nothing audible was ever said.

I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong on that, but I can't recall anything. It is a feature of numerous Trek based games, all the way back to Star Fleet Battles, and on into various video game titles.

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Old October 23 2011, 11:30 PM   #3
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Re: Dreadnought

Transk53 wrote: View Post
I am wondering if in the Cannon, Starfleet commisioned a Dreadnought. In various mods and games, I believe this type of battlewagon has been mentioned. In an old game called Birth Of The Federation, the Sovereign was termed Dreadnought. I seem to remember an episode of DS9 where a rather large looking Ship was in orbit of DS9. It looked like a Battlewagon to me. I know the Sovereign was originally designed to be a heavy hitter, but that ship kind of looked like an Excelsior on steroids.
On-screen the closest we ever got to a Starfleet vessel that was purely and primarily a combat ship was Defiant on DS9. I don't recall the large vessel you speak of - do you recall which episode it was?
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Old October 23 2011, 11:32 PM   #4
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Dreadnought

We saw the Enterprise-D upgraded as a dreadnought in the alternate future of "All Good Things". There's also the double-hulled USS Newton from STXI, loosely based on the Proxima-class battleship from Starfleet Command on the PC.
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Old October 23 2011, 11:48 PM   #5
J.T.B.
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Re: Dreadnought

A call for "Dreadnought Entente, NCC-2120" can be heard in Episilon 9 radio chatter early in TMP.

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Old October 23 2011, 11:50 PM   #6
Dukhat
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Re: Dreadnought

Transk53 wrote: View Post
I am wondering if in the Cannon, Starfleet commisioned a Dreadnought.
It's "canon," not "cannon." A cannon shoots cannonballs

In various mods and games, I believe this type of battlewagon has been mentioned. In an old game called Birth Of The Federation, the Sovereign was termed Dreadnought.
Mods and games are not canon, so whatever they say means nothing.

I seem to remember an episode of DS9 where a rather large looking Ship was in orbit of DS9. It looked like a Battlewagon to me.
The largest Starfleet vessel docked at DS9 was the Enterprise-D. The next largest was the Nebula class, and the next largest after that was the Excelsior class. None of those ships were canonically classified as dreadnoughts.

Albertese wrote: View Post
I don't believe any kind of Dreadnought was ever mentioned on screen. It all began with the Franz Joseph technical manual. An image of the ship from that book might have appeared ever so briefly in the background of a TOS movie but nothing audible was ever said. I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong on that, but I can't recall anything. It is a feature of numerous Trek based games, all the way back to Star Fleet Battles, and on into various video game titles.
Several pages from FJ's tech manual were scanned and used as images on various displays in the second and third ST movies. The ships that could be seen clearly were the Hermes/Saladin destroyer/scout, the Ptolemy transport/tug, and the original TOS Constitution. However, the page showing the OUTLINE of the dreadnought was also shown, but not the page with the actual diagram of it. So basically it's up to an individual's opinion whether the ship is actually canon or not. And of course, just because a ship diagram appeared on a viewscreen doesn't mean that the ship actually exists either.

Also, in TMP during the Epsilon 9 scene, radio chatter could be heard referring to the U.S.S. Entente NCC-2120. This was one of the names on the list of dreadnoughts in the FJ manual. However, although this was clearly a reference to the manual (two other scout ships from the manual were also referred to in the chatter), since we didn't actually see the ship, there's no proof that it looks like the dreadnought pictured in the manual.

SpookingDaniel wrote: View Post
We saw the Enterprise-D upgraded as a dreadnought in the alternate future of "All Good Things".
It's never referred to as a dreadnought, though.
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Old October 24 2011, 06:45 AM   #7
Albertese
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Re: Dreadnought

Boo-khat wrote: View Post

...

Several pages from FJ's tech manual were scanned and used as images on various displays in the second and third ST movies.

...
As this is the Internet and I am a nerd, I feel I must point out that scanners as such didn't exist in those days and the pages of the Technical Manual were in fact photographed and rear-screen projected as slides based on the negatives.

But other than my rabid attention to pedantic film-making details, you are otherwise correct. And good catch about the radio chatter, I had forgotten that.

Also, I seem to recall some such images also appearing in TMP, where V-Ger downloads the Enterprise's computer banks. And possibly also when Spock is mind melding while in his space-suit (when he's mentally overloaded and everything starts flashing and he starts to scream). But I could be mistaken about that too.

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Old October 24 2011, 08:13 AM   #8
Cary L. Brown
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Re: Dreadnought

Albertese wrote: View Post
I don't believe any kind of Dreadnought was ever mentioned on screen. It all began with the Franz Joseph technical manual. An image of the ship from that book might have appeared ever so briefly in the background of a TOS movie but nothing audible was ever said.

I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong on that, but I can't recall anything. It is a feature of numerous Trek based games, all the way back to Star Fleet Battles, and on into various video game titles.

--Alex
That's not actually true... there was an audible reference to the Dreadnaught Entente' (as well as several other FJ-based names and numbers) in the comm traffic during ST-TMP.

And there were schematics of dreadnaughts seen on-screen during more than one of the TMP-era flicks.

Now, what is a dreadnaught? Well, most folks just think of that as meaning "a big, bad ship." And, for the most part, that's true, but by that definition, you MIGHT consider the Galaxy class a "dreadnaught," and that's obviously not the case.

A dreadnaught, in classical terms, merely refers to a battleship-type vessel with a specific gun configuration. But in Trek terms, I think that term is obviously primarily obsolete.

In "fanon" work (and I'll consider FJ's stuff to be "fanon" for teh sake of this argument, since GR and his successors, during the TNG-and-later era, did everything within their power to invalidate FJ's stuff), a "dreadnaught" is a large ship which has significantly increased power output and "fleet command" level command-and-control systems.

As a rule, a single dreadnaught is assigned to each major Federation jurisdiction (Starbase, etc) and serves as the primary "vessel on-call" for that post, and also as a "mobile command post" should fleet actions be undertaken. Yes, a "heavy cruiser" like Enterprise would not be the flagship, in those situations... a dreadnaught would.

In the TOS-era, with primary power generation occurring in the engine nacelles, the Federation class dreadnaught had at least 150% of the power output of the Constitution class (and likely also had additional fusion-power capacity as well).

In the TMP-era, the "Federation (uprated)" class dreadnaught had an entire second reactor system of the type the Enterprise class (aka "Constitution (uprated)"?) carried, giving it 200% (plus fusion-based auxiliary power) of the power output of the Enterprise.

Presumably, other TMP-era dreadnaught classes (Ascension, Adamant, etc) would have been comparable in terms of power generation.

The dreadnaughts lack long-range-exploratory features (large labs, etc), have limited cargo capacity when compared to similar-sized classes, have expanded flight decks (embarking both personnel/cargo shuttles and dedicated tactical craft), and have a "fleet command" facility separate from the main bridge.

Typical peacetime roles include "local policing" of the region immediately around a starbase (supporting, when necessary, the smaller craft which are normally dedicated to that function), emergency actions initiated from a starbase (such as rescues of ships in distress), and "shows of the flag."

The typical wartime role is, as mentioned before, "fleet command." It's likely among the fastest and most powerful ships in a fleet, but is not normally going to see a "tip of the spear" role in any combat scenario. Rather, its defenses will be considered largely "robust, aggressive defense." These ships will usually have very balanced firepower, rather than forward-emphasized firepower as is the case with most conventional "ships of the line."

All that is "fanon" information... none of it was ever formally stated on-screen. But, as with so many other things, it was very well-defined and widely accepted prior to the "shutdown of fanon" by PPC legal and the decry of "fanon" by GR in the TNG-and-later era.
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Old October 24 2011, 11:34 AM   #9
Transk53
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Re: Dreadnought

Boo-khat wrote:
Mods and games are not canon, so whatever they say means nothing.
Obviously, hence my question LMAO

Looks like I have not remembered correctly. Makes sense that the TOS era would be the only likely time that pure Warships would be around, if at all. Thanks for the replies :)
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Old October 24 2011, 04:18 PM   #10
Dukhat
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Re: Dreadnought

Albertese wrote: View Post
Boo-khat wrote: View Post

...

Several pages from FJ's tech manual were scanned and used as images on various displays in the second and third ST movies.

...
As this is the Internet and I am a nerd, I feel I must point out that scanners as such didn't exist in those days and the pages of the Technical Manual were in fact photographed and rear-screen projected as slides based on the negatives.

But other than my rabid attention to pedantic film-making details, you are otherwise correct. And good catch about the radio chatter, I had forgotten that.

Also, I seem to recall some such images also appearing in TMP, where V-Ger downloads the Enterprise's computer banks. And possibly also when Spock is mind melding while in his space-suit (when he's mentally overloaded and everything starts flashing and he starts to scream). But I could be mistaken about that too.

--Alex
I wasn't using the word "scanned" to refer to the way we presently scan things, you big nerd

In all seriousness though, you're correct about the use of FJ's blueprints in TMP, although they were of the TOS Constitution class only, and no diagrams of the dreadnought were shown. However, I will point out that in the first season of TNG, there were several uses of ships from the old FASA roleplaying game, and at least one ship from the old Spaceflight Chronology, used as scenes on displays.

As for the dreadnought itself, it's up in the air. The Entente reference was clearly meant to be one of FJ's dreadnoughts at the time TMP was produced, and the various displays of other FJ ships in the next two movies bear out that the Tech Manual was considered to be "official" at the time. Unfortunately GR's silly dispute with FJ, ultimately making the manual no longer official, along with Paramount's later edict about having only licensed works as official, makes this a gray area. However, one thing we'll always have at least as part of the Trek novel continuilty is Boris Vallejo's cover artwork of a refit Federation-class dreadnought, which is probably one of the most awesome-est ships in Trek
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Old October 24 2011, 05:14 PM   #11
Captain Robert April
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Re: Dreadnought

Here's a transcript of the Epsilon Nine comm chatter...

LIEUTENANT: This is comm station Epsilon Nine, calling U.S.S. Columbia. Come in Columbia. Respond!

COLUMBIA VOICE: (too faint to understand)

LIEUTENANT: This is Epsilon Nine. Am boosting output. How do you read this?

COLUMBIA VOICE: All right. (too faint to understand)

LIEUTENANT: Scout Columbia NCC six two one to rendezvous with Scout Revere NCC five nine five on stardate seven four one one point four. Further orders to be relayed at that time. Signed, Commodore Probert, Starfleet. End of transmission.

COLUMBIA VOICE: All right. (too faint to understand)
I'll try and carve out some time to watch this scene myself with the subtitles, but this seems pretty spot-on, and there's no reference to the Entente, or any dreadnaught, for that matter.
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Old October 24 2011, 05:46 PM   #12
Dukhat
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Re: Dreadnought

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I'll try and carve out some time to watch this scene myself with the subtitles, but this seems pretty spot-on, and there's no reference to the Entente, or any dreadnaught, for that matter.
It depends on which version of TMP you're watching. I believe the director's cut has edited the Entente audio out. I myself have heard the actual audio with the Entente and it's registry number, so I can confirm it's there.
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Old October 24 2011, 06:09 PM   #13
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Re: Dreadnought

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Here's a transcript of the Epsilon Nine comm chatter...

LIEUTENANT: This is comm station Epsilon Nine, calling U.S.S. Columbia. Come in Columbia. Respond!

COLUMBIA VOICE: (too faint to understand)

LIEUTENANT: This is Epsilon Nine. Am boosting output. How do you read this?

COLUMBIA VOICE: All right. (too faint to understand)

LIEUTENANT: Scout Columbia NCC six two one to rendezvous with Scout Revere NCC five nine five on stardate seven four one one point four. Further orders to be relayed at that time. Signed, Commodore Probert, Starfleet. End of transmission.

COLUMBIA VOICE: All right. (too faint to understand)
I'll try and carve out some time to watch this scene myself with the subtitles, but this seems pretty spot-on, and there's no reference to the Entente, or any dreadnaught, for that matter.
Boo-khat wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
I'll try and carve out some time to watch this scene myself with the subtitles, but this seems pretty spot-on, and there's no reference to the Entente, or any dreadnaught, for that matter.
It depends on which version of TMP you're watching. I believe the director's cut has edited the Entente audio out. I myself have heard the actual audio with the Entente and it's registry number, so I can confirm it's there.
I couldn't wait to get home to check this out...

You can hear it about 4:20 (start about 4:15) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aR1mfsPFXw
quite faint but certainly there. "Epsilon 9. This is dreadnaught Entante calling. NCC 21... "

I wouldn't have noted it if I wasn't listening for it, but caught it on the first go.
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Old October 24 2011, 06:16 PM   #14
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Re: Dreadnought

Albertese wrote: View Post
And possibly also when Spock is mind melding while in his space-suit (when he's mentally overloaded and everything starts flashing and he starts to scream). But I could be mistaken about that too.

--Alex
Back in the paleolithic ages of VHS I made a point of watching the entire mind meld sequence frame by frame.

Unless I am still recovering from taking too much LDS in the late Seventies, those odd graphics that pop up show a rather striking resemblance to the Pioneer 10 Plaque...

I wonder why.
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Old October 24 2011, 07:36 PM   #15
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Re: Dreadnought

Starlock, I did too. In fact, every movie I own with a rapid flashing sequence like that, I watch at frame-by-frame. Interesting stuff sometimes hidden in there...

--Alex
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