Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans?

The Overlord · November 25 2011, 09:08 PM

Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans, with a story that just a straight up conflict between the Federation and Romulan Empire? Besides the latest Star Trek movie, there has never been a Star Trek movie that featured the Romulans as the villains. Nemesis toyed with that but instead introduces the Remans, aliens never seen before or since this movie, as the villains.

It seems like this movie would have had a tighter script if Shinzon wasn't a Picard clone, but was an aggressive Romulan commander who wanted war with the Federation. Shinzon launched a military coup to gain control of the Romulan empire, with the Romulan military building the Scimitar in secret, without the Senate's knowledge. As the Praetor, Shinzon could still pretend to be interested in peace as a prelude to war.

This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis. It also builds upon the tension we saw between the Romulans and the Federation in TNG.

Maxillius · November 25 2011, 09:18 PM

Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.

The Overlord · November 25 2011, 09:33 PM

Maxillius wrote:

Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.

I disagree, I thought it was pretty bad and the way the script was written made no sense.

WarsTrek1993 · November 26 2011, 06:06 AM

Nemesis definitely wasn't without flaws, but it had its moments.
I felt the Remans were interesting (except for the godawful makeup they used.) If anything, it would've been better to explore them more. (And for that matter, explore Shinzon alittle more)

sonak · November 26 2011, 06:15 AM

Maxillius wrote:

Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.

then why did it lose to "Maid in Manhattan" when it opened up? "Nemesis" is The only Trek movie not to open at no.1 LOTR:TTT wasn't even out yet.

WarsTrek1993 · November 26 2011, 06:17 AM

Just my personal opinion. lol.

T'Girl · November 26 2011, 06:30 AM

The Overlord wrote:

This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis.

that's the problem with your idea, it's simplistic.

sonak wrote:

then why did it lose to "Maid in Manhattan" when it opened up?

Just for that reason, Maid in Manhattan was excellent, well made, good story.

Star Trek:Nemesis and Maid in Manhattan cost about the same amount. Nemesis was badly reviewed and made 67 million, Maid received wonderful reviews and starred Jenifer Lopez at the height of her movie popularity, her movie made 155 million.

Nemesis just couldn't compete after the word of mouth got out.

The Overlord · November 26 2011, 07:21 AM

T'Girl wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis.

that's the problem with your idea, it's simplistic.

What's wrong with keeping it simple and straight forward. I somewhat believe in this principal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

sonak · November 26 2011, 07:22 AM

T'Girl wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis.

that's the problem with your idea, it's simplistic.

sonak wrote:

then why did it lose to "Maid in Manhattan" when it opened up?

Just for that reason, Maid in Manhattan was excellent, well made, good story.

Star Trek:Nemesis and Maid in Manhattan cost about the same amount. Nemesis was badly reviewed and made 67 million, Maid received wonderful reviews and starred Jenifer Lopez at the height of her movie popularity, her movie made 155 million.

Nemesis just couldn't compete after the word of mouth got out.

I wasn't really comparing "Nemesis" to "Maid," just pointing out that if LOTR: TTT and other big sci-fi/fantasy blockbuster competition was behind "Nemesis'" box office failure, then the fact that it couldn't even beat out a Lopez romantic comedy before those other movies were out yet kind of blows a hole in that argument.

Morpheus 02 · November 26 2011, 07:29 AM

sonak wrote:

Maxillius wrote:

Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.

then why did it lose to "Maid in Manhattan" when it opened up? "Nemesis" is The only Trek movie not to open at no.1 LOTR:TTT wasn't even out yet.

i know i was saving up for a big LOTR night (going out to the midnight show, and eating before/afterwards).

I didn't want to get movied out.

And LotR was definitely grander & more anticipated than Nemesis.

And when i heard the reviews -- definitely killed my excitement.

AdmiralScreed · November 26 2011, 05:26 PM

I thought Shinzon was an interesting concept, and with more development and a better motivation he could have been a terrific villain. With all that said, I like your idea of putting the focus on the Romulans and eliminating the Remans from the movie entirely. The Romulans were my favorite villains in TNG, and I think a conflict between them and the Federation could have made for a far more interesting movie than what we actually got.
I would agree with WarsTrek1993 that Nemesis did have its moments, but IMO its many flaws overshadowed a lot of its good moments. I don't think Nemesis is nearly as bad as the critics and most Trek fans claim, but regardless it could have been much, much better.
Going back to how it could have been different, I like your idea of a military coup with an aggressive Romulan taking over Romulus and trying to wage war with the Federation. At the same time, I somewhat agree with T'Girl that the story would need a lot of fleshing out so that it didn't just turn into an action movie with the Federation vs. the Romulus. I'm sure that's what you intended, though, so cool idea.

BriGuy · November 26 2011, 10:18 PM

I know I was hoping for a Romulan movie. I was jazzed that they'd finally be used as the adversary in a movie, only to have those hopes dashed.

They didn't need to invent the Remans. There's enough established already.

Ln X · November 26 2011, 10:36 PM

Nemesis was good, but I think the whole problem was Star Trek oversaturation. I always think of 1990 to 1999 as the golden age of Star Trek, nearly all of my favorite episodes are in that time period. But because everyone (Trekkies) had seen so much Star Trek the bar had to be raised to really impress us, but since it was not raised there was disappointment.

I wasn't disappointed, its a good movie to watch, but because of oversaturation Nemisis didn't stand a chance against the Matrix Reloaded, and Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. LOTR trilogy are the most amazing films of this century, nothing can compare to their epicness. So what chance did Star Trek Nemisis have?

Another problem was that the TNG crew weren't really cut out for action movies. The DS9 crew could have been up to the job, but by then it was to late. (sighs)

Ar-Pharazon · November 27 2011, 07:24 AM

Certainly the Tal Shiar could have built the Scimitar in secret. It wouldn't have been the first time the intelligence agency of some race did that.

Would've been easier to believe than the "subjugated race" doing it.

King Daniel Into Darkness · November 27 2011, 03:49 PM

I thought the Remans were really cool. Mutant, vampiric Vulcanoids? Excellent.

November 25 2011, 09:08 PM	#1
The Overlord Captain	Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans, with a story that just a straight up conflict between the Federation and Romulan Empire? Besides the latest Star Trek movie, there has never been a Star Trek movie that featured the Romulans as the villains. Nemesis toyed with that but instead introduces the Remans, aliens never seen before or since this movie, as the villains. It seems like this movie would have had a tighter script if Shinzon wasn't a Picard clone, but was an aggressive Romulan commander who wanted war with the Federation. Shinzon launched a military coup to gain control of the Romulan empire, with the Romulan military building the Scimitar in secret, without the Senate's knowledge. As the Praetor, Shinzon could still pretend to be interested in peace as a prelude to war. This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis. It also builds upon the tension we saw between the Romulans and the Federation in TNG.

November 25 2011, 09:18 PM	#2
Maxillius Lieutenant Commander	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.

November 26 2011, 06:06 AM	#4
WarsTrek1993 Captain Location: The Final Frontier, TX	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Nemesis definitely wasn't without flaws, but it had its moments. I felt the Remans were interesting (except for the godawful makeup they used.) If anything, it would've been better to explore them more. (And for that matter, explore Shinzon alittle more)

November 26 2011, 06:17 AM	#6
WarsTrek1993 Captain Location: The Final Frontier, TX	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Just my personal opinion. lol.

November 26 2011, 05:26 PM	#11
AdmiralScreed Captain	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? I thought Shinzon was an interesting concept, and with more development and a better motivation he could have been a terrific villain. With all that said, I like your idea of putting the focus on the Romulans and eliminating the Remans from the movie entirely. The Romulans were my favorite villains in TNG, and I think a conflict between them and the Federation could have made for a far more interesting movie than what we actually got. I would agree with WarsTrek1993 that Nemesis did have its moments, but IMO its many flaws overshadowed a lot of its good moments. I don't think Nemesis is nearly as bad as the critics and most Trek fans claim, but regardless it could have been much, much better. Going back to how it could have been different, I like your idea of a military coup with an aggressive Romulan taking over Romulus and trying to wage war with the Federation. At the same time, I somewhat agree with T'Girl that the story would need a lot of fleshing out so that it didn't just turn into an action movie with the Federation vs. the Romulus. I'm sure that's what you intended, though, so cool idea.

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November 26 2011, 10:18 PM	#12
BriGuy Rear Admiral Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? I know I was hoping for a Romulan movie. I was jazzed that they'd finally be used as the adversary in a movie, only to have those hopes dashed. They didn't need to invent the Remans. There's enough established already.

November 26 2011, 10:36 PM	#13
Ln X Fleet Captain Location: Blottoed in Quark's bar	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Nemesis was good, but I think the whole problem was Star Trek oversaturation. I always think of 1990 to 1999 as the golden age of Star Trek, nearly all of my favorite episodes are in that time period. But because everyone (Trekkies) had seen so much Star Trek the bar had to be raised to really impress us, but since it was not raised there was disappointment. I wasn't disappointed, its a good movie to watch, but because of oversaturation Nemisis didn't stand a chance against the Matrix Reloaded, and Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. LOTR trilogy are the most amazing films of this century, nothing can compare to their epicness. So what chance did Star Trek Nemisis have? Another problem was that the TNG crew weren't really cut out for action movies. The DS9 crew could have been up to the job, but by then it was to late. (sighs) __________________ ST: The Approaching Shadow... Caption contests: *VOY ,* *DS9*

November 27 2011, 07:24 AM	#14
Ar-Pharazon Admiral of the Rear	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? Certainly the Tal Shiar could have built the Scimitar in secret. It wouldn't have been the first time the intelligence agency of some race did that. Would've been easier to believe than the "subjugated race" doing it. __________________ Rimmer, on what period of history to live in- “Well, It’d be the 19th century for me, one of Napoleon’s marshals. The chance to march across Europe with the greatest general of all time and kill Belgians” - (White Hole).

November 27 2011, 03:49 PM	#15
King Daniel Into Darkness Admiral Location: Behind the aft nacelle	Re: Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans? I thought the Remans were really cool. Mutant, vampiric Vulcanoids? Excellent.