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Old September 30 2011, 12:03 PM   #46
Mr Silver
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Since it wasn't too many years earlier that he was living in a camper in a friend's driveway, it probably wouldn't take an exceptionally large paycheck to make him happy.

Hey, there's a question for the cast members who still bitch about Shatner. Were any of them forced into abject homelessness after Star Trek? No? THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU SPOILED BRATS!
I don't think that's a really fair statement to make. Do you know the exact circumstances that caused Shatner to end up living in a camper van on his friend's driveway?

Besides, most of the "bitching" about Shatner was done in reference to things like his attitude problem whilst filming and his rewriting of scenes to make himself look better, even at the cost of the supporting cast's screentime.
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Old September 30 2011, 12:51 PM   #47
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Since it wasn't too many years earlier that he was living in a camper in a friend's driveway, it probably wouldn't take an exceptionally large paycheck to make him happy.

Hey, there's a question for the cast members who still bitch about Shatner. Were any of them forced into abject homelessness after Star Trek? No? THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU SPOILED BRATS!

You don't know what "abject poverty" to Mr. Shatner is. My goodness.

While he was "destitute" he still owned a large property in California, a ranch that today probably is worth tens of millions. He had a bad divorce and his wife took basically all his money and more. But he refused to sell that ranch since he loved the place too much. He also had to pay alimony to his wife and child support.

And he has always been a RESPONSIBLE individual. He has never OWED any debt, and he has never been late for paying any bill.

So no. He was not really "destitute". He was merely trying to be fiscally responsible, unlike millions of people who aren't.

Satisfied?

You can dislike him as much as you want, but please, no more insults like this.
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Old September 30 2011, 12:57 PM   #48
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Admiral M wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Since it wasn't too many years earlier that he was living in a camper in a friend's driveway, it probably wouldn't take an exceptionally large paycheck to make him happy.

Hey, there's a question for the cast members who still bitch about Shatner. Were any of them forced into abject homelessness after Star Trek? No? THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU SPOILED BRATS!
I don't think that's a really fair statement to make. Do you know the exact circumstances that caused Shatner to end up living in a camper van on his friend's driveway?

Besides, most of the "bitching" about Shatner was done in reference to things like his attitude problem whilst filming and his rewriting of scenes to make himself look better, even at the cost of the supporting cast's screentime.
But everybody tried to make themselves look better. Mr. Nimoy himself admitted he tried to persuade writers to rewrite many scenes for him so he had more to do. Except he was more diplomatic and usually did all this behind the scenes so others might not be aware of what he was doing, while Mr. Shatner was perhaps more dominant on the set.

Mr. Nimoy called Mr. Shatner a "pussycat." How dangerous can he be? LOL
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Old September 30 2011, 02:15 PM   #49
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

My sister has a 12 inch scar on her arm made by one of her cute little pussycats. ;-)
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Old September 30 2011, 04:54 PM   #50
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
My sister has a 12 inch scar on her arm made by one of her cute little pussycats. ;-)
Did she disown that cute little pussycat afterwards? I hope not.

I almost got my finger bit off by my 100 lb dog by accident. He is still the dearest, silliest, cutest little puppy to me.
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Old October 1 2011, 01:42 AM   #51
Therin of Andor
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Were any of them forced into abject homelessness after Star Trek? No?
Well, they trained as actors and ended up eternally typecast in a show on endless repeat throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, but which paid them residuals only on the first two repeats. As far as casting agents were concerned, they were "in work". They started doing conventions on weekends for survival rather than winning film, TV and stage roles. And they were being asked, weekend after weekend, "What was it like to work with William Shatner?"

If they chose to only tell rosy stories - and they didn't really get into the nasty stuff until everyone started writing their autobiographies, anyway - the convention audiences are gonna get bored. So silly, fluffy stories about Shatner deliberately crossing his eyes (to either make everyone laugh on set, or, to ruin the closeups of his colleagues, depending on who's listening to the anecdotes and reporting them in fanzines and the press) can end up sounding nasty.

You know, I've heard all of the main TOS actors telling ST anecdotes on stage, and many of them in casual, non-ST, non fannish, situations, and the only one I felt Shatner-bitterness from was James Doohan. Takei's more highly-publicised, recent attacks have taken a different tone, sure, but in the 70s and 80s his Shatner stories seemed to be told with affection. They were delivered with humour, not malice, and were confirmed by appearances I witnessed by Grace Lee Whitney and Yvonne Craig. Even Nichelle Nichols "But you haven't asked me why we all hated you..." jibe to Shatner, when he was interviewing them all for "Star Trek Memories", would have been delivered with her trademarked wicked/affectionate smirk.

The media is as much to blame for the idea that the supporting cast of ST dump on Shatner all the time. Imagine if, every time someone shoved a microphone at them and asked them to tell some Shatner stories, they said, "No comment". The media and the fans would interpret that as hatred, too.

So demanding that the actors "shut up" is not going to have the effect you so desire.

CRA, you're working with Bjo Trimble at the moment. While her Shatner anecdotes are few and far between, she seems to hold Takei, Nichols, Keonig, Doohan and Whitney in very high esteem. Those actors made themselves very accessible to the fans in the 70s and 80s. Nimoy and Roddenberry weren't really speaking in the 70s, but there they both are at the shuttle roll-out. For whatever reasons, Shatner rarely made such ST-related publicity appearances without his standard fee, or because he was "too busy". That's going to colour people's views, whatever the truth.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; October 1 2011 at 10:40 AM. Reason: tweaking
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Old October 1 2011, 02:13 AM   #52
jk82
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Were any of them forced into abject homelessness after Star Trek? No?
Well, they trained as actors and ended up eternally typecast in a show on endless repeat throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, but which paid them residuals only on the first two repeats. As far as casting agents were concerned, they were "in work". They started doing conventions on weekends for survival rather than winning film, TV and stage roles. And they were being asked, weekend after weekend, "What was it like to work with William Shatner?"

If they chose to only tell rosy stories - and they didn't really get into the nasty stuff until everyone started writing their autobiographies, anyway - the convention audiences are gonna get bored. So silly, fluffy stories about Shatner deliberately crossing his eyes (to either make everyone laugh on set, or, to ruin the closeups of his colleagues, depending on who's listening to the anecdotes and reporting them in fanzines and the press) can end up sounding nasty.

You know, I've heard all of the main TOS actors telling ST anecdotes on stage, and many over them in casual situations, and the only one I felt Shatner bitterness from was James Doohan. Takei's more highly-publicised, recent attacks have taken a different tone, sure, but in the 70s and 80s his Shatner stories seemed to be told with affection. They were delivered with humour, not malice, and were confirmed by appearances I witnessed by Grace Lee Whitney and Yvonne Craig. Even Nichelle Nichols "But you haven't asked me why we all hated you..." jibe to Shatner, when he was interviewing them all for "Star Trek Memories", would have been delivered with her trademarked wicked/affectionate smirk.

The media is as much to blame for the idea that the supporting cast of ST dump on Shatner all the time. Imagine if, every time someone shoved a microphone at them and asked them to tell some Shatner stories, they said, "No comment". The media and the fans would interpret that as hatred, too.
Thanks for the informative post. I have wondered about the reasons behind this Shatner hate. I saw this program in which Mr. Koenig said nothing against Mr. Shatner. In fact he said he was just feeling happy and lucky to be working and did not notice anything unusual and did not think too much beyond his own job. Then later I read he and Mr. Doohan were the two most fervent detractors of Mr. Shatner. It does not make any sense. And if anything Mr. Takei probably hated Mr. Koenig more.

I also wonder if Mr. Doohan disliked Mr. Shatner more due to the SNL skit making fun of his marriage. But Mr. Shatner did not write the skit, for god's sake.

So demanding that the actors "shut up" is not going to have the effect you so desire.
I think Captain April was taking a shot at the venerable Mr. Shatner being poor, not at the others.
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Old October 1 2011, 10:29 AM   #53
Therin of Andor
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

jk82 wrote: View Post
It does not make any sense. And if anything Mr. Takei probably hated Mr. Koenig more.
George and Walter are very good friends. I don't think George "hates" anyone, having been a victim of vilification and hatred all his life, first as an Asian living in USA and then as a gay man forced into the closet by society.

But Mr. Shatner did not write the skit, for god's sake.
I don't recall Doohan's marriages even coming up in the SNL skit. In any case, Doohan's had two wives and Shatner has had four. Fans (some of them) were upset with Shatner over the infamous "Get a life!" speech on SNL because they felt it was a rather low blow that Shatner could have refused to perform as written.

I think Captain April was taking a shot at the venerable Mr. Shatner being poor, not at the others.
Doubtful. CRA was defending Shatner's absences earlier in this thread. See Page 1, plus "Again, it's beyond silly for the supporting cast to be in a snit over Shatner, especially after all these years" on Page 2.
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Old October 1 2011, 05:01 PM   #54
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
George and Walter are very good friends. I don't think George "hates" anyone, having been a victim of vilification and hatred all his life, first as an Asian living in USA and then as a gay man forced into the closet by society.
Mr. Takei said it himself he hated Mr. Koenig. They may have become good friends, it doesn't mean he liked Mr. Koenig from the very beginning.

I don't recall Doohan's marriages even coming up in the SNL skit. In any case, Doohan's had two wives and Shatner has had four. Fans (some of them) were upset with Shatner over the infamous "Get a life!" speech on SNL because they felt it was a rather low blow that Shatner could have refused to perform as written.
Doohan's marriage came up in the same Get a life skit. Before Mr. Shatner came on stage, the gleeful "convention organizer" introduced a beautiful woman as Mr. Doohan's ex-wife and said that her marriage to Mr. Doohan was turbulent and life married to the chief engineer was like being married to a Mugato and she was going to sign her book about the marriage "Beam Me Out of Here." It is a joke obviously since the woman's name was not one of Doohan's wives'.

Mr. Shatner said before the skit, "I hope ST fans have a sense of humor. Otherwise I would be in deep trouble." So I don't really understand why people made a big deal out of it. Personally I think the skit is hilarious. I wish I could take Mr. Shatner's advice better.

I think Captain April was taking a shot at the venerable Mr. Shatner being poor, not at the others.
Doubtful. CRA was defending Shatner's absences earlier in this thread. See Page 1, plus "Again, it's beyond silly for the supporting cast to be in a snit over Shatner, especially after all these years" on Page 2.
Ahhh... I am sorry I misunderstood him. I take back what I said then. My sincere apologies. CRA
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Old October 1 2011, 10:31 PM   #55
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

jk82 wrote: View Post
Mr. Takei said it himself he hated Mr. Koenig.
Where?

Takei was jealous of Koenig, because he got to fill in for him on several meaty scripts originally written with Sulu in mind. And who could blame him? Takei signed up to do a movie with John Wayne that was supposed to be completed between TOS Seasons 1 and 2.

David Gerrold's original script for "The Trouble with Tribbles" had a fun role for Sulu. Filming of "The Green Berets" was interrupted by bad weather and the movie cast was recalled to the outdoor sets for reshoots.

In production order:

39 "Mirror, Mirror"
40 "The Deadly Years"
41 "I, Mudd"
42 "The Trouble With Tribbles"
43 "Bread and Circuses"
44 "Journey to Babel"
45 "A Private Little War"
46 "The Gamesters of Triskelion"
47 "Obsession"
48 "The Immunity Syndrome"
49 "A Piece of the Action"
50 "By Any Other Name"
51 "Return to Tomorrow"

So, "Mirror, Mirror" had a meaty role for Sulu/Takei and "The Deadly Years" had a focus on Chekov/Koenig, and a lesser role for Sulu/Takei. Then Sulu is suddenly missing for ten episodes straight, and Chekov fills meaty intended-for-Sulu parts in both "Tribbles" and "Gamesters". The intention was also to build a rapport between the two characters, as they manned their consoles each week, but ten episodes in a row with Sulu missing made this impossible for a while, too. He's back for "Return to Tomorrow".

They may have become good friends, it doesn't mean he liked Mr. Koenig from the very beginning.
Professional jealousy, though, is not "hate".

Doohan's marriage came up in the same Get a life skit. Before Mr. Shatner came on stage, the gleeful "convention organizer" introduced a beautiful woman as Mr. Doohan's ex-wife and said that her marriage to Mr. Doohan was turbulent and life married to the chief engineer was like being married to a Mugato and she was going to sign her book about the marriage "Beam Me Out of Here." It is a joke obviously since the woman's name was not one of Doohan's wives'.
I can assure you, that skit was not the cause of the Doohan/Shatner feud.

Mr. Shatner said before the skit, "I hope ST fans have a sense of humor. Otherwise I would be in deep trouble." So I don't really understand why people made a big deal out of it. Personally I think the skit is hilarious.
Of course it is, but it was also very cruel satire. So he did end up "in deep trouble", as far as some fans were concerned.
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Old October 2 2011, 12:42 AM   #56
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

Where?

Takei was jealous of Koenig, because he got to fill in for him on several meaty scripts originally written with Sulu in mind. And who could blame him? Takei signed up to do a movie with John Wayne that was supposed to be completed between TOS Seasons 1 and 2.
If I recall correctly he said it in After They Were Famous, the same program during which Koenig said he did not pay attention to other things.


I can assure you, that skit was not the cause of the Doohan/Shatner feud.
I know. Mr. Doohan probably started bashing Mr. Shatner long before 1986. I don't think the skit helped improve their relationship though.

Of course it is, but it was also very cruel satire. So he did end up "in deep trouble", as far as some fans were concerned.
I don't know why people got offended in the first place. I know personally people who are obsessed with certain things. For example, some would go on wikipedia to edit every single item they can think of related to their interests. They cherish those little stars they get awarded for being great contributors to Wikipedia. They spend all day in front of a computer; they don't eat well, they hardly sleep, and they get sick a lot. Sigh.

I don't think they would have been offended if someone told them to get a life though. As long as they are happy with what they are doing, they don't necessarily care what other people say about them.
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Old October 2 2011, 01:10 AM   #57
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

jk82 wrote: View Post
I don't know why people got offended in the first place...

They spend all day in front of a computer; they don't eat well, they hardly sleep, and they get sick a lot...

...they don't necessarily care what other people say about them.
Which are sweeping, stereotypical statements, as unfair to apply to ST fans as was Shatner's skit.

While I saw, to a degree, the humour and truth in the skit, I also saw the gross errors (for example, most ST convention audiences are usually approx. 50% female), and the sweeping, stereotypical statements that the skit makes cannot be applied to the entire ST fanbase.

You
weren't offended, but please accept that not everyone has such a healthy self esteem that they can handle such biting satire, especially from someone they had admired for decades. Even if he jokingly apologized both before and after the skit.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; October 2 2011 at 01:45 AM. Reason: tweaking
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Old October 2 2011, 01:33 AM   #58
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
jk82 wrote: View Post
I don't know why people got offended in the first place...

They spend all day in front of a computer; they don't eat well, they hardly sleep, and they get sick a lot...

...they don't necessarily care what other people say about them.
Which are sweeping, stereotypical statements, as unfair to apply to ST fans as was Shatner's skit.

While I saw, to a degree, the humour and truth in the skit, I also saw the gross errors (for example, most ST convention audiences are usually approx. 50% female), and the sweeping, stereotypical statements that the skit makes cannot be applied to the entire ST fanbase.

You
weren't offended, but please accept that not everyone has such a healthy self esteem that they can handle such biting satire, especially from someone they had admired for decades. Even if he jokingly apologized both before and after the skit.
I understand. I too thought the worst part about the skit is that they didn't even bother to have their facts straight. It made so many stupid mistakes with episode numbers and titles. That female yeoman did not get reduced to a cube and crushed in episode 37 Errand of Mercy. The Enemy Within was not episode 51. It really annoyed me. I mean for sure with all those talented writers they could have done better.

Look at Futurama, they did almost everything right. Thanks to another TrekBBs member's comment I watched the whole Futrurama episode Where no fan has gone before and it's very funny. BTW it took not so subtle jabs at some conflicts among the cast members.
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Old October 2 2011, 01:46 AM   #59
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

jk82 wrote: View Post
I mean for sure with all those talented writers they could have done better.
Haha, you realize all the mistakes were part of the satire? Now they're having a lend of you. Still. Long after the fact!

jk82 wrote: View Post
If I recall correctly he said it in After They Were Famous, the same program during which Koenig said he did not pay attention to other things.
Okay. Well, you're referencing an obscure UK TV special from 2002. Finally found it on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxsmN...ature=youtu.be

George admits, in jovial tones, to being "livid with jealousy and frustration" and having "hated the name Walter Koenig". That's quite different to saying that "if anything Mr. Takei probably hated Mr. Koenig more" and "Mr. Takei said it himself he hated Mr. Koenig".

Takei's attitude in Season 2 is also very understandable, especially, as I said earlier, knowing that Takei ended up unexpectedly forfeiting a run of ten episodes to the extension of filming on "The Green Berets" - and thus losing at least two big scripts to Koenig's character. Professional jealousy. Nothing more, nothing less.

Interesting that Takei's first soundbyte on the video is admiring Bill Shatner's talent.
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Old October 2 2011, 02:41 AM   #60
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Re: Where Was Shatner At The Enterprise Shuttle Rollout?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

Haha, you realize all the mistakes were part of the satire? Now they're having a lend of you. Still. Long after the fact!
I... I just think the skit would have worked better if they had made an effort getting episode names right. I mean even if their intention was to mock Trekkers, shouldn't they at least make sure that part is correct?



Okay. Well, you're referencing an obscure UK TV special from 2002. Finally found it on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxsmN...ature=youtu.be

George admits, in jovial tones, to being "livid with jealousy and frustration" and having "hated the name Walter Koenig". That's quite different to saying that "if anything Mr. Takei probably hated Mr. Koenig more" and "Mr. Takei said it himself he hated Mr. Koenig".
I don't know whether he is "jovial" or "angry" or "serious" or "lighthearted" since he sounds about the same to me every time he speaks.

Interesting that Takei's first soundbyte on the video is admiring Bill Shatner's talent.
That's why I don't understand why he later said some nasty stuff about Mr. Shatner's acting abilities. Shouldn't these people be at least consistent with their statements? Do they really forget what they say or are they just ACTING all the time? This whole "hating on Shatner" thing gives me headaches.
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