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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 12 2011, 08:51 AM   #1
William Wallace
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Plot hole city: Part II!

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Last edited by William Wallace; September 12 2011 at 09:40 AM.
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Old September 12 2011, 10:20 AM   #2
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

1. Chekov yells "compensating for gravitational pull!" just before they materialize. It's wasn't quiet.

2. Same reason the old Enterprise kept surviving despite Scotty and Spock's repeated predictions of certain doom.

3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.

4. He explains his reasoning at the end.

5. Exactly where where they were in every other non-Voyager/Enterprise time travel episode or movie.

Last edited by King Daniel Into Darkness; September 12 2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old September 12 2011, 11:05 AM   #3
Pauln6
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.
That's not quite true any more. Now that transporters can beam things to a light year's distance a ship at the edge of sensor range can beam a boarding party across or beam explosive devices to attack you long before you know who they are or whether they are hostile. The genie is out of the bottle.
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Old September 12 2011, 11:24 AM   #4
Trekker4747
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?
Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.
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Old September 12 2011, 11:50 AM   #5
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.
That's not quite true any more. Now that transporters can beam things to a light year's distance a ship at the edge of sensor range can beam a boarding party across or beam explosive devices to attack you long before you know who they are or whether they are hostile. The genie is out of the bottle.
"Now"? It's been the case since TNG's "Bloodlines". Or far earlier if one counts TOS aliens-of-the-week. The genie came out, nobody used it. The Dominion had the same ability too, but they never used it offensively, either.
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Old September 12 2011, 12:10 PM   #6
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.

With post 9/11 terrorism on the agenda it's possible to argue that use of such tactics would depend on the species. However, even the 'honourable' Klingons, who enjoy a fair fight have been seen using subterfuge and deception to gain an advantage in battle to even the odds where they are outmatched.
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Old September 12 2011, 12:52 PM   #7
BK613
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?
Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.
It is something that has been implicit since the first transport was depicted on screen. IOW, a person beaming down to a planet has their orbital velocity reduced to the surface velocity and vice versa.
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Old September 12 2011, 01:03 PM   #8
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.
In that case, why didn't the Federation drop Genesis bombs on the Borg and make cute little cubed planets?

And even so, we've seen the technology in the hands of the Federation and the Ferengi. Not the Romulans.
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Old September 12 2011, 01:27 PM   #9
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.
In that case, why didn't the Federation drop Genesis bombs on the Borg and make cute little cubed planets?

And even so, we've seen the technology in the hands of the Federation and the Ferengi. Not the Romulans.
Genesis devices are unstable and have a massive area of effect. Plus, if an active device could be transported Kirk would have done so in TWok to give them more distance. It's clear from TWok that a remote control device would not work (tongue in cheek here).

I can imagine the Ferengi beaming across biological weapons to incapacitate but not necessarily explosives - one assumes that there is more profit in 'salvaging' an intact ship. Plus couldn't they beam through shields for a while? Even better!
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Old September 12 2011, 01:55 PM   #10
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

William Wallace wrote: View Post
Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?
Cool story, Bro.
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Old September 12 2011, 03:12 PM   #11
number6
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Location: number6 has left the village through some inexpicable hole in the ground to head the corporation.
Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

William Wallace wrote: View Post
Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?
Explained in the film
2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.
Crewmember was expressing a concern, not a fact.
3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?
Nero went after the JF with all power available once Romulus was destroyed, then they both got sucked into the black hole. Not too difficult to figure out if you watched the film.

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?
Explained in the film.
5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?
Where were they during any of the other time traveling shows in the franchise?

Do you even know what a plothole is? It didn't seem so from the last thread.
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Old September 12 2011, 03:34 PM   #12
Gojira
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

William Wallace wrote: View Post
Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?
Just a question of curiosity. With all of these plot holes you see are you able to come up with plausible explanations on your own for any of these?

It just takes a little creative thinking to explain these plot holes.
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Old September 12 2011, 03:55 PM   #13
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

*sigh*
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Old September 12 2011, 04:20 PM   #14
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

All of these arguments have happened before and all of these arguments will happen again.

God lead the survivors from the wasteland of the previous thread across the forum to their new thread, where they may find rebirth and the ability to break the cycle of flaming, trolling, and general unpleasantness. Will it happen again?

for what its worth:

1. Transporters can apparently reduce the momentum of a falling target so that they survive materialization on the pad.

2. The black hole was still in the process of forming when Spock was on Vulcan. The Enterprise needed to leave before it was fully formed, which they did. In fact, they left just as it fully engulfed the planet.

3. Spock needed to deploy the Red Matter in front of the shock wave so assuming that "fastest ship" means fastest at impulse he needed to slow down and position the Jellyfish for the correct deployment position.

4. Spock Prime didn't want to contaminate the timeline or create a paradox. He later changed his mind and met nuSpock as he figured the timeline had been irrevocably altered anyway. Spock Prime had known Jim Kirk for most his life and knew that he'd get the job done. He makes no distinction between "Kirk prime" and "nuKirk".

5. The timecops don't show up because Abrams-verse exists as a separate "sovereign" entity just like the Mirror universe. The 29th century Abrams-verse timecops wouldn't allow the 29th century Prime timecops to interfere with their timeline.
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Old September 12 2011, 04:26 PM   #15
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Re: Plot hole city: Part II!

BK613 wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?
Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.
It is something that has been implicit since the first transport was depicted on screen. IOW, a person beaming down to a planet has their orbital velocity reduced to the surface velocity and vice versa.
Well the best place to orbit a planet would be in geo-stationary orbit, any higher or lower at the ship could be in the wrong place for an emergency beam out. So there would be no difference in speed.
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