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Old September 17 2011, 06:23 PM   #76
T'Girl
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Come to think of it, how many Voyager episodes actual required the ship to be "lost" in the delta quadrant? Cerainly a few yes. But the majority would have basically played out the same if the Voyager had been exploring a priviously unknown section of the alpha quadrant.

They rarely made any use of the fact that maque were aboard, Chakotay and BeLanna could have, in most episodes, simply been new to the ship.

The characters backstories the same.

Having to cut through various peoples territories (including the borg's) didn't need to have happen in the delta quad.

Having to stop for repairs and occasionl supplies could have happen to any of the captains if only outside of the boundries federation.
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Old September 17 2011, 10:11 PM   #77
USS Excelsior
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Voyager is an additional show to the other Star Trek series and is therefore supplementary to the greater franchise.

As they travel through space it provides the opportunity to write completely new plots with new characters as they travel along. And plus is the series that can best fulfill the original premise of going where no one has gone before and seeking out new civilizations, certainly far more so than TNG.
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Old September 17 2011, 10:47 PM   #78
Anwar
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

But what kind of "New" plots would VOY's premise really bring? On it's own, the "Lost and on our own" thing still isn't enough to really be THAT interesting. NuBSG, Farscape, Lexx, Andromeda and Blake's Seven all had more to their series plots than that.
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Old September 18 2011, 02:53 AM   #79
The Wormhole
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Come to think of it, how many Voyager episodes actual required the ship to be "lost" in the delta quadrant? Cerainly a few yes. But the majority would have basically played out the same if the Voyager had been exploring a priviously unknown section of the alpha quadrant.

They rarely made any use of the fact that maque were aboard, Chakotay and BeLanna could have, in most episodes, simply been new to the ship.

The characters backstories the same.

Having to cut through various peoples territories (including the borg's) didn't need to have happen in the delta quad.

Having to stop for repairs and occasionl supplies could have happen to any of the captains if only outside of the boundries federation.
Interesting point. For the most part, I agree. Although, had the ship just been exporing some remote area of the Alpha Quadrant, it would seem odd they didn't have a proper medical staff as opposed to a holograhpic doctor and his assistant. Also, I can't imagine Tom Paris as a con serving time tagging along on such a mission.

Both problems are easy to work around. The doctor could have been human and still act the same way, he'd just be rude and have no social skills instead of being programmed that way. And instead of being a convict, Tom Paris could just be a slacking officer who didn't want to be in Starfleet and the character could have still developed the exact same way he did.
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Old September 18 2011, 05:13 AM   #80
Vanyel
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Come to think of it, how many Voyager episodes actual required the ship to be "lost" in the delta quadrant? Cerainly a few yes. But the majority would have basically played out the same if the Voyager had been exploring a priviously unknown section of the alpha quadrant.

They rarely made any use of the fact that maque were aboard, Chakotay and BeLanna could have, in most episodes, simply been new to the ship.

The characters backstories the same.

Having to cut through various peoples territories (including the borg's) didn't need to have happen in the delta quad.

Having to stop for repairs and occasionl supplies could have happen to any of the captains if only outside of the boundries federation.
Interesting point. For the most part, I agree. Although, had the ship just been exporing some remote area of the Alpha Quadrant, it would seem odd they didn't have a proper medical staff as opposed to a holograhpic doctor and his assistant. Also, I can't imagine Tom Paris as a con serving time tagging along on such a mission.

Both problems are easy to work around. The doctor could have been human and still act the same way, he'd just be rude and have no social skills instead of being programmed that way. And instead of being a convict, Tom Paris could just be a slacking officer who didn't want to be in Starfleet and the character could have still developed the exact same way he did.
I don't think Tom's character would have developed as it did with Voyager ~70 years from home. His father's shadow would have followed him where ever he went in the AQ. In The DQ, he was finally free of his father and he was able to become the best officer and husband he could. From what I remember Admiral Paris did realize he made mistakes with Tom, perhaps trying to turn Tom into the officer he was at that age; a mold Tom didn't fit. With fathers and sons, sometimes distance, make both realize their mistakes and turns them into better people and helps heal the wounds between them. It helped me and my dad. I ran all the way to Europe to go to school for a full semester and stayed for the full 6 months of my Visa. When I came back he was more accepting that I am gay.

I don't think a human who lacks social skills would be a CMO, but rather a researcher. A good Captain would have had him transferred, and his Starfleet & Medical school records would have pointed that fact out. Unless the CMO was a desk job, he'd be forced off every ship he served on. (IMO Crusher's job as CMO would be mostly desk work. She'd have a staff of around 10 doctors and at least as many nurses and more field medics and assistant CMO who'd be the one dealing with patients. Leaving Crusher free to evaluate her staff and make reports and help with difficult diagnosis' and dealing with the Captain and XO. Kinda like Cuddy, except she wouldn't be looking for funding but supplies.)
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Old September 18 2011, 03:38 PM   #81
USS Excelsior
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

That faux Captain from the Valiant with that bitchy first officer.
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Old September 19 2011, 02:04 AM   #82
The Wormhole
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
That faux Captain from the Valiant with that bitchy first officer.
To be fair, he wasn't really an actual captain. Just a cadet who got thrown in command because all his supervising officers were killed. Granted, he was stupid enough to get his crew killed on a half-baked plan to take out a Dominion uber-battleship using strategies from the Star Wars movies when really, he should have just gone home and given the tactical data over to the experts and let them use strategies from some old WWII movie to take the thing out. But he was a 20 year-old kid posing as a captain, so I can't consider him the worst captain.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Come to think of it, how many Voyager episodes actual required the ship to be "lost" in the delta quadrant? Cerainly a few yes. But the majority would have basically played out the same if the Voyager had been exploring a priviously unknown section of the alpha quadrant.

They rarely made any use of the fact that maque were aboard, Chakotay and BeLanna could have, in most episodes, simply been new to the ship.

The characters backstories the same.

Having to cut through various peoples territories (including the borg's) didn't need to have happen in the delta quad.

Having to stop for repairs and occasionl supplies could have happen to any of the captains if only outside of the boundries federation.
Interesting point. For the most part, I agree. Although, had the ship just been exporing some remote area of the Alpha Quadrant, it would seem odd they didn't have a proper medical staff as opposed to a holograhpic doctor and his assistant. Also, I can't imagine Tom Paris as a con serving time tagging along on such a mission.

Both problems are easy to work around. The doctor could have been human and still act the same way, he'd just be rude and have no social skills instead of being programmed that way. And instead of being a convict, Tom Paris could just be a slacking officer who didn't want to be in Starfleet and the character could have still developed the exact same way he did.
I don't think Tom's character would have developed as it did with Voyager ~70 years from home. His father's shadow would have followed him where ever he went in the AQ. In The DQ, he was finally free of his father and he was able to become the best officer and husband he could. From what I remember Admiral Paris did realize he made mistakes with Tom, perhaps trying to turn Tom into the officer he was at that age; a mold Tom didn't fit. With fathers and sons, sometimes distance, make both realize their mistakes and turns them into better people and helps heal the wounds between them. It helped me and my dad. I ran all the way to Europe to go to school for a full semester and stayed for the full 6 months of my Visa. When I came back he was more accepting that I am gay.

I don't think a human who lacks social skills would be a CMO, but rather a researcher. A good Captain would have had him transferred, and his Starfleet & Medical school records would have pointed that fact out. Unless the CMO was a desk job, he'd be forced off every ship he served on. (IMO Crusher's job as CMO would be mostly desk work. She'd have a staff of around 10 doctors and at least as many nurses and more field medics and assistant CMO who'd be the one dealing with patients. Leaving Crusher free to evaluate her staff and make reports and help with difficult diagnosis' and dealing with the Captain and XO. Kinda like Cuddy, except she wouldn't be looking for funding but supplies.)
Well, maybe they'd have to be tweaked a bit. EG, maybe the Doctor recentally had been under some form of stress that made him such an irritable bastard. Maybe Tom Paris would be a bit harder to do, but I'm certain it wouldn't be impossible.
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Old September 19 2011, 05:23 AM   #83
Vanyel
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
That faux Captain from the Valiant with that bitchy first officer.
To be fair, he wasn't really an actual captain. Just a cadet who got thrown in command because all his supervising officers were killed. Granted, he was stupid enough to get his crew killed on a half-baked plan to take out a Dominion uber-battleship using strategies from the Star Wars movies when really, he should have just gone home and given the tactical data over to the experts and let them use strategies from some old WWII movie to take the thing out. But he was a 20 year-old kid posing as a captain, so I can't consider him the worst captain.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Interesting point. For the most part, I agree. Although, had the ship just been exporing some remote area of the Alpha Quadrant, it would seem odd they didn't have a proper medical staff as opposed to a holograhpic doctor and his assistant. Also, I can't imagine Tom Paris as a con serving time tagging along on such a mission.

Both problems are easy to work around. The doctor could have been human and still act the same way, he'd just be rude and have no social skills instead of being programmed that way. And instead of being a convict, Tom Paris could just be a slacking officer who didn't want to be in Starfleet and the character could have still developed the exact same way he did.
I don't think Tom's character would have developed as it did with Voyager ~70 years from home. His father's shadow would have followed him where ever he went in the AQ. In The DQ, he was finally free of his father and he was able to become the best officer and husband he could. From what I remember Admiral Paris did realize he made mistakes with Tom, perhaps trying to turn Tom into the officer he was at that age; a mold Tom didn't fit. With fathers and sons, sometimes distance, make both realize their mistakes and turns them into better people and helps heal the wounds between them. It helped me and my dad. I ran all the way to Europe to go to school for a full semester and stayed for the full 6 months of my Visa. When I came back he was more accepting that I am gay.

I don't think a human who lacks social skills would be a CMO, but rather a researcher. A good Captain would have had him transferred, and his Starfleet & Medical school records would have pointed that fact out. Unless the CMO was a desk job, he'd be forced off every ship he served on. (IMO Crusher's job as CMO would be mostly desk work. She'd have a staff of around 10 doctors and at least as many nurses and more field medics and assistant CMO who'd be the one dealing with patients. Leaving Crusher free to evaluate her staff and make reports and help with difficult diagnosis' and dealing with the Captain and XO. Kinda like Cuddy, except she wouldn't be looking for funding but supplies.)
Well, maybe they'd have to be tweaked a bit. EG, maybe the Doctor recentally had been under some form of stress that made him such an irritable bastard. Maybe Tom Paris would be a bit harder to do, but I'm certain it wouldn't be impossible.
Again a doctor under stress, even a recent stress that caused change in personality would get him/her off a starship. A CMO with a bad attitude just would not survive, and would be sent back to Starfleet Medical for therapy. A ship the size of Voyager seems to need only 1 doctor and a nurse or three, and if that doctor is human with a bad attitude, I'd be calling up the EMH instead.

No matter what you do to Tom, unless he's no longer Tom, would mean he'd need to be far away from his father and his father's influence.
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Old September 19 2011, 01:55 PM   #84
The Wormhole
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Maybe if a doctor was really good at his job, they'd keep him regardless his attitude?

Yeah, I know I'm stretching things now. I'm just stubborn and refuse to give up.
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Old September 19 2011, 02:03 PM   #85
Deckerd
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
That faux Captain from the Valiant with that bitchy first officer.
I said that on page 1 or 2.
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Old September 20 2011, 06:12 AM   #86
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Styles in Star Trek III, everything about him screams dumbass.
He walked around with a Swagger Stick!
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Old September 20 2011, 06:21 AM   #87
Paradon
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Kate Mulgrew would have played a charismatic leader, but how they portrayed Janeway was horrible.
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Old September 20 2011, 10:25 AM   #88
T'Girl
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Oh, I don't know. Portraying Janeway as possibly being psychologically "uneven" makes the character interesting.
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Old September 20 2011, 02:53 PM   #89
Anwar
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

And no one complains that the leads in other shows similar to VOY (Farscape, LEXX, NuBSG) had less-than-stable characterizations either.
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Old September 20 2011, 06:08 PM   #90
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Anwar wrote: View Post
And no one complains that the leads in other shows similar to VOY (Farscape, LEXX, NuBSG) had less-than-stable characterizations either.
Well in Farscape (it's been a while since I watched that show), they're not a formally organized or trained crew, just a batch of randomers who got thrown together. You could counter with Claudia Black's character being an actual military officer, and the Maquis members of Voyager, but for the most part, Voyager was still meant to be a ship of proffessionals.

Haven't watched LEXX, so can't comment.

NuBSG, well we could argue competiting scales of catastrophes and how'd they'd affect people, being a lone ship far away from home (that is still there) compared to a ship where there is no home anymore isn't quite the same level of mental trauma.

Though then again, I think it was safer to potray slightly unhinged characters in nuBSG, since they didn't have any recent character 'archetypes' (not sure if stereotypes is too strong a word here) to go against. To elaborate, a batch of overly unbalanced Starfleet officers all on one ship would seem odd when watched in comparison to (at the time) recent series like DS9 and TNG, unless mention was made early on that the series that Voyager was some kind of 'dumping' ground for middling officers and crewmen.
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