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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old September 15 2011, 02:18 PM   #61
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Jellico was not good enough to command a ship like Enterprise, but he certainly wasn't the worst captain we've seen.
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Old September 15 2011, 02:31 PM   #62
Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Anwar wrote: View Post
Satyrquaze wrote: View Post

My personal issue with Voyager was the whole "Our primary mission is to get home, but lets pause to gaze at every celestial phenomena and/or stop over at every planet on the way to meddle in their affairs."
This further proves that the whole "We're lost and want to get home" thing works best when the Galaxy/Universe is uninhabited except for humans, like in NuBSG. In the Trekverse, the same plot as VOY had already been played out in TOS and TNG. For a Trek show they'd need something more to the plot than "lost and want to go home" to keep it fresh.
I don't think that the "we're lost and need to get home" plot works at all, regardless of whether or not the universe is inhabited or not, and was the biggest mistake the Voyager staff made. Roddenberry was originally going to make the Yorktown *before he called it the Enterprise) be lost in space in the same way, but then he realized that in order to maintain some kind of anchor for the audience, he would not do this, an instead he would be able give the ship orders every week, and the episodes may or may not be about those orders... but it gave the ship a weekly purpose. By having them stranded, the viewer starts to look into details they shouldn't be even more than normal - details that might be difficult to keep consistent considering the logistics pf television production, things like whether there is consistency to the background crew wembers, or many shuttles we have. The Voyager writers were stupid for using the premise at all - it's only a good premise for a limited amount of time - say a story arc that lasts a limited number of episodes, and not good for a whole series. The Voyager writers should have swallowed their pride and got the crew home once they realized they couldn't sustain the premise. Oh, and putting the Maquis on the ship actually hurt. "Mr. Tuvok, we got disorderly people down on deck 9 who don't feel like following orders. And they have bad fashion sense. Oh they are Maquis and they are fighting to keep their home which was given to the Cardassians in the new treaty, despite the fact that none of us are near that home, that border, or the Cardassians."
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Old September 15 2011, 02:46 PM   #63
Satyrquaze
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Vanyel wrote: View Post
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Why always the Janeway hate? She was stuck 70 years away from Earth (Or Federation space I don't think it was ever made clear). Her command decisions had to be based as much on training as on "What the hell do I do now?" Think about how long would would Picard, Sisco or Kirk, be able to maintain a consistent command style or make the proper starfleet style decision? Picard in his huge Galaxy class ship might have held out longer but even he would know that constant attacks by the Kazon and Vidiians would be taking their toll on him and his crew. Who really could be consistent, near perfect, faced with with ~70 year journey home?
But, she didn't maintain a consistent command style. Kate Mulgrew herself says that Janeway was borderline erratic in her command style and decision-making process from one episode to the next... which of course Mulgrew blames on the writing staff.

My personal issue with Voyager was the whole "Our primary mission is to get home, but lets pause to gaze at every celestial phenomena and/or stop over at every planet on the way to meddle in their affairs."
Or they got caught up in the affairs of other planets or species because they happened to stop there to barter for supplies.

Yes Voyager did have poor character development. But no ones mentioned Captain Bateson for not recognizing the name "USS Enterprise." Or it's obvious size difference and different look from a Constitution class ship, or that it's shape and design would not be in the Bozeman's computer. Only that "it's not familiar to us."
Would a good Starship captain "get caught up" in the personal affairs of apparently every planet they stopped at for supplies? Short answer: No.

And I note you don't even touch back upon Janeway's lack of cosistent command style.

The length of time that Captain Bateson is on screen is best measured in seconds; those were extrordinary circumstances to be sure. And you may not have noticed this, but sometimes Starship captains keep their full knowledge close to the vest when opening communications with an unknown party... even if that unknown party appears to be another Federation Starship captain. He really did not need to name drop in that instance.
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Last edited by Satyrquaze; September 15 2011 at 02:59 PM.
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Old September 15 2011, 02:54 PM   #64
Anwar
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Yeah, the "Lost Ship" thing is only good for 1-2 seasons at most. Every other "Lost ship" show in recent history had something else going for it:

1) NuBSG, it wasn't just one ship but an entire mobile civilization, and it dealt with how society survives the apocalypse type stuff. And the show fell apart after 2 seasons.

2) Farscape, as the show went on the plot became less "Crichton wants to go home" and more "Crichton must keep the doomsday weapon tech in his brain from being exploited" finally to "Crichton must use the information in his mind to end Galactic War."

3) LEXX, was never a "Lost Ship" thing really but also made sure to have plots beyond that (The Gigashadow, Mantrid, Satan, etc).

Seriously, VOY needed more than just "Lost Ship". The Borg/8472 war should've been the series plot after a while.
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Old September 15 2011, 02:57 PM   #65
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

who is captain bateson?

Edit: i found it
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Old September 15 2011, 03:40 PM   #66
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

"lost in space" and "gilligan's island" managed to make the premise work. VOY just needed a Gilligan character and a Dr. Smith character.

Neelix could've been the Gilligan, screwing up their plans week after week, and one of the Maquis could have been the Dr. Smith, treacherously scheming against the crew week after week.
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Old September 15 2011, 03:54 PM   #67
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Sonak, I don't agree, because Trek viewers would still notice inconsistencies like extras, shuttles whatever. In truth the premise really limits the dramatic possibilities of telling a Teek story
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Old September 15 2011, 03:56 PM   #68
Satyrquaze
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

sonak wrote: View Post
...the Maquis could have been the Dr. Smith, treacherously scheming against the crew week after week.
^ That might have been a show worth watching...
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Old September 15 2011, 04:14 PM   #69
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

It would have been ridiculous and unsustainable.

Why didn't the Robinsons put an end to Doctor Smith? Answer: Dumb Kids Show and Harris is bringing in the numbers.

If Janeway put up with the Maquis fucking up her ship and crew for more than two weeks there would have been no acceptable answer to the above question for most Trek viewers.
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Old September 15 2011, 04:20 PM   #70
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

^ There was a bit of faction intrigue in Stargate: Universe which helped that show out a bit. But, then I think it only lasted two seasons, so there might be something to what you say.
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Old September 15 2011, 04:34 PM   #71
sonak
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Dennis wrote: View Post
It would have been ridiculous and unsustainable.

Why didn't the Robinsons put an end to Doctor Smith? Answer: Dumb Kids Show and Harris is bringing in the numbers.

If Janeway put up with the Maquis fucking up her ship and crew for more than two weeks there would have been no acceptable answer to the above question for most Trek viewers.

Federation compassion and her continual quest to redeem them
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Old September 15 2011, 04:52 PM   #72
Anwar
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Richard Harris himself was the one who requested that the writers tone Smith down from the evil saboteur he was in the early episodes. He said it wouldn't make any sense for the Robinsons not to kill him or just kick him off the ship immediately if he stayed so clearly evil. So even HE saw it back then.

So yeah, VOY's "Lost" story was good as a STARTER plot; something to start off the series, but within a season they needed to replace that with something else as the series plot. Like every other "Lost in Space" type show worth remembering did.
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Old September 15 2011, 04:59 PM   #73
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Not only is such a plot unsustainable, I don't really find it all that interesting as drama, certainly worth all of anguish I'd have to endure to endure before it even becomes dramatically interesting. Look at ENT's third season. They were not only the only ship but they also were low on supplies and couldn't magically repair the ship between episodes. But the real thing was that they had a specific mission that required their real involvement, and episodes like the Shipment thought small were essential in building up to more satisfying fare such as Azati Prime, Damage, and the Forgotten. Those episodes bury seven years of plodding by Voyager
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Old September 15 2011, 05:04 PM   #74
Anwar
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Yep, use "We're lost" for 1-2 seasons and then come up with a better series plot.

As in, they don't know how to go home for S1-2 so they fly around making allies and enemies and getting dragged into local politics/events. Then in S3 the Borg/8472 War starts up and this is pretty much the plot for the rest of the series.
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Old September 17 2011, 05:56 PM   #75
Hartzilla2007
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

captrek wrote: View Post
HarryM wrote: View Post
Ronald Tracey, a murderer, hard to stoop lower.
Arguably Picard in Homeward, but I don't want to drag that argument into this thread.

There fixed it for you
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