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Old December 29 2013, 04:06 AM   #136
Elder Knight
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

I can forgive Harriman. His first mission grew out of a press event, probably something forced upon him.

Had he held out for the tractor beam installation, he may have gotten out of the crisis nicely, but we've seen Kirk accept an imperfectly-equipped ship on some occasions.
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Old December 29 2013, 06:41 PM   #137
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Jellico didn't need to address any "honeymoon" period with the crew. However, he did absolutely NOTHING to settle their nerves about the sudden change in captaincy.
He doesn't have to, and in fact did not have TIME to, "settle nerves". That's not the captain's obligation to do that. It's simply the crew's place to follow orders - whenever the captain wants, and however fast he wants. Jellico was entirely within his prerogative to demand things as fast as he felt like doing it.

As for "worst captain"? Definitely Ron Tracey. Say what you like about any other captain in this thread, at least they weren't power hungry dictators who killed innocent people with phasers.
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Old December 29 2013, 07:14 PM   #138
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
As for "worst captain"? Definitely Ron Tracey. Say what you like about any other captain in this thread, at least they weren't power hungry dictators who killed innocent people with phasers.
Tracy was killing Yangs who were attacking the last Khom village. That he shouldn't have taken sides is debatable (Kirk did on Neural), however calling the Yang attackers "innocent" doesn't fit the facts.


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Old December 29 2013, 07:17 PM   #139
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

^ Still, Tracey had no business getting involved down there in the first place, of course.

And let's not forget that even if you don't believe (as I do) that the Yangs are innocent - the Enterprise security guard whom Tracey killed in cold blood WAS.
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Old December 29 2013, 07:34 PM   #140
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
^ Still, Tracey had no business getting involved down there in the first place, of course.

And let's not forget that even if you don't believe (as I do) that the Yangs are innocent - the Enterprise security guard whom Tracey killed in cold blood WAS.
And, he was trying to get the Yangs to kill Kirk and crew, too.
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Old December 29 2013, 09:39 PM   #141
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
BigKrampus wrote: View Post

What are you talking about?
He's talking about Robeau and Pike.
No, I mean, why is he claiming ST09 "introduced us" to strong, calm and competent captains? That's hardly an innovation of nuTrek. I liked Bruce Greenwood's Pike -- he was warmer and more personable than the original article -- but he was hardly more strong, calm or competent. Robau was great for all four minutes of his living screen-time, but I wouldn't call him more strong, calm or competent than many another guest command officer in TOS (say Robert Wesley) or TNG.
Now that I think about it, when was the last time that we saw a non-hero captain in a Trek movie? Harriman's been discussed to death here. At best we had a couple crooked admirals and that's it. At least when it comes to movies, we didn't have a non-hero captain on screen who came across as remotely dignified as Robau or Pike, and the movies generally get more attention than the TV shows.

But even in TV, thanks to Star Trek's long hiatus, that also means that the last dignified, competent non-hero captain we've seen was probably Hernandez of the Columbia, last seen on screen almost 9 years ago. So even Robau's turn on screen comes after a long absence of competent captains.
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Old December 29 2013, 10:10 PM   #142
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Now that I think about it, when was the last time that we saw a (competent) non-hero captain in a Trek movie?
Commander Donatra of the IRW Valdore in Star Trek: Nemesis. Arguably, Captain Sulu in Star Trek VI, since he wasn't Kirk or part of the Enterprise crew anymore. Captain Margaret Alexander of the U.S.S. Saratoga and Captain Joel Randolph of the U.S.S. Yorktown in Star Trek IV, even if we weren't exactly seeing them and their crews in the best of circumstances.

I can think of some examples from TOS, TNG, and DS9, too, but you said "movie".
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Old December 29 2013, 10:11 PM   #143
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

I'll give Harriman a pass on this. We have no idea what his career pre-STG was like. For all we know he could have been an awesome captain - I mean, he got an Enterprise, and that alone must mean something...

But nobody's perfect, Harriman included. He can't be expected to solve everything himself, and the fact that he asked for Kirk's help (which takes some courage in and of itself) doesn't mean Harriman was any less of a captain. Harriman realized he was in over his head, so he buried his pride and did not panic - he asked for assistance. I'd call that dignified.

Besides, the ship wasn't exactly in tip top shape anyway, of course.
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Old December 29 2013, 10:37 PM   #144
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Now that I think about it, when was the last time that we saw a (competent) non-hero captain in a Trek movie?
Commander Donatra of the IRW Valdore in Star Trek: Nemesis. Arguably, Captain Sulu in Star Trek VI, since he wasn't Kirk or part of the Enterprise crew anymore. Captain Margaret Alexander of the U.S.S. Saratoga and Captain Joel Randolph of the U.S.S. Yorktown in Star Trek IV, even if we weren't exactly seeing them and their crews in the best of circumstances.

I can think of some examples from TOS, TNG, and DS9, too, but you said "movie".
I should have clarified, I meant "Starfleet" captain -- non-Starfleet captains as on-screen characters in movies are a dime a dozen. But even then, if we want to count Sulu, that's still a couple decades ago. I also don't count captains that we don't see on screen, because frankly we know nothing about them other than their command (for all we know, Alexander is just as good as any captain during the Battle of Sector 001, but we clearly know less of them than Terrell, Esteban, Styles, Harriman, Sulu, Decker, Spock, Kirk, et all and their command styles).

I also specifically said movie because obviously TV would have much more material, and Robau and NuPike are movie products. As I mentioned with Hernandez, she's the most recent TV example of a good non-hero captain, and even then that was nearly a decade ago.

*I also count Sulu as a hero captain though, because he was an integral protagonist in TUC and was among the senior crew since the 60s. It's not very fair to compare Harriman's foibles to someone of Sulu's stature and screen time.
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Old December 29 2013, 11:06 PM   #145
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
But nobody's perfect, Harriman included. He can't be expected to solve everything himself, and the fact that he asked for Kirk's help (which takes some courage in and of itself) doesn't mean Harriman was any less of a captain. Harriman realized he was in over his head, so he buried his pride and did not panic - he asked for assistance. I'd call that dignified.

Besides, the ship wasn't exactly in tip top shape anyway, of course.
I agree. The "Not until tuesday" is a "Blame-it on Starfleet" case. This PR exercise turned into a real-ife Kobayashi Maru because someone at Starfleet command decided that was okay to not having any fully fonctionnal ships in this area. The Enterprise-B was an empty shell.
The Commodore Stocker of this story was not Harriman, but the ones who made these bad decisions.
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Old December 29 2013, 11:42 PM   #146
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

And not having any other starships around Earth of course. And Captain Kirk gets lost in the line of duty because they can't find at least one engineer to crawl into Engineering to do that job.
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Old December 29 2013, 11:56 PM   #147
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I should have clarified, I meant "Starfleet" captain -- non-Starfleet captains as on-screen characters in movies are a dime a dozen. But even then, if we want to count Sulu, that's still a couple decades ago. I also don't count captains that we don't see on screen, because frankly we know nothing about them other than their command (for all we know, Alexander is just as good as any captain during the Battle of Sector 001, but we clearly know less of them than Terrell, Esteban, Styles, Harriman, Sulu, Decker, Spock, Kirk, et all and their command styles).
I'll allow the stipulation about meaning Starfleet captains, but we DID see Alexander and Randolph on screen - and in Alexander's case, for probably just as (insignificantly) long as we saw Robau. Both seemed competent and businesslike, for the little bit of time we saw them.

I started to mention Bateson, since you brought up Sector 001, but apparently Grammer's vocal appearance is "unconfirmed". Whatever.

Edit: By humorous coincidence, I posted this while experiencing a "Whalesong Incident" of my own - our power is out, only my Internet router and a lamp are on battery power.
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Old December 30 2013, 12:07 AM   #148
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

My personal theory regarding Harriman is that his daddy (or mommy) probably sat on the Federation Council or something like that and pushed for his/her son to get command of the Enterprise.

I also second the sentiment that Jellico was a competent officer although not very likable. Then again, he didn't exactly try to run for office there, he was assigned by Starfleet to get a specific job done. And at the very least, he and Geordi seemed to have developed some sort of bond after Jellico had settled down a bit. Had he stayed on longer he'd probably managed to establish a rapport with most of his officers, except maybe for Riker who I see easily requesting a transfer to a different ship. But some people just don't get along with each other very well, no matter what.

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Old December 30 2013, 12:56 AM   #149
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I should have clarified, I meant "Starfleet" captain -- non-Starfleet captains as on-screen characters in movies are a dime a dozen. But even then, if we want to count Sulu, that's still a couple decades ago. I also don't count captains that we don't see on screen, because frankly we know nothing about them other than their command (for all we know, Alexander is just as good as any captain during the Battle of Sector 001, but we clearly know less of them than Terrell, Esteban, Styles, Harriman, Sulu, Decker, Spock, Kirk, et all and their command styles).
I'll allow the stipulation about meaning Starfleet captains, but we DID see Alexander and Randolph on screen - and in Alexander's case, for probably just as (insignificantly) long as we saw Robau. Both seemed competent and businesslike, for the little bit of time we saw them.
Sure, I stand corrected, but that's still 27 years ago, however. I'm not trying to say that competent non-hero captains were non-existent before Robau, I'm saying that they're few and far between in Trek overall, especially in movies. Having Robau and Pike come across as captains who know what they're doing is generally the exception rather than the rule when it comes to non-hero captains per movie.

I started to mention Bateson, since you brought up Sector 001, but apparently Grammer's vocal appearance is "unconfirmed". Whatever.
I'm of the attitude that it's not NOT Bateson

Edit: By humorous coincidence, I posted this while experiencing a "Whalesong Incident" of my own - our power is out, only my Internet router and a lamp are on battery power.
Whenever a power outage would happen to me as a kid, I'd call the battery "auxiliary power" and the lamp "emergency lights." Oh yes, Trek has much to answer for with my childhood
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Old December 30 2013, 01:30 AM   #150
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
I'm of the attitude that it's not NOT Bateson
They later confirmed in TrekLit that he *was* in the battle, and so of course *I'm* going to believe it.

<-----------------

And you're not the only one who spoke Star Trek growing up - although mine was mixed with Star Wars and BSG (the original).
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