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Old November 19 2011, 08:18 PM   #2311
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Derishton wrote: View Post
We've been focused on character here, but Justice League does one other thing pretty well: it's remarkable how much it feels like a ground floor arc. The sheer number of continuity references is overwhelming: from the big touchpoints like Steve Trevor to little ones like the staff at STAR Labs (Orr, Charles, Morrow, Ivo) and the little girl who introduces Diana to ice cream (one of the sidekicks from the Icon universe.)

The continuity guy in me really like Cyborg's new origin being so connected to the Kirby stuff (his original origin really was just "crazy dimensional blob"), but I can also see how tying everything so closely together might end up limiting this new universe somewhat. There's already a theory that OMAC is related to Motherbox tech as well.
All of this is true.

Additionally, the original Justice League was pretty much a bunch of superfolks with no personalities (which is to say, 1960s-1970s DC standard characters) who "complemented" one another because Wonder Woman's magic lasso could work on yellow when Green Lantern was in a jam - etc., etc. This version is a group of people who have distinct behavioral traits and strengths and weaknesses of character that both make it possible for them to help one another and get on each other's last nerve. Batman and GL, in particular, are entertaining as hell. And the very idea that Superman of all people has a reflexive, male emotional reaction to Diana showing up and kicking the baddies around is marvelous.
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Old November 19 2011, 09:03 PM   #2312
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I also think the decompression really worked in the third issue: the previous issues had "interludes" with the Stones which now get caught up in the main plot; Wonder Woman has an interlude in which she thinks one thing is happening when really it's something else. The rest of the plot, seen as one long cross-country chase that started on a rooftop in Gotham but subsequently sucks up every other potential plot in its path? That's at least a little bit brilliant, and the moment it really gelled for me was Superman one-armed batting of a dozen parademons with a truck. It's breakneck because its supposed to look out of control. I'll take it over tree-demon aliens any day ...
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Old November 19 2011, 09:11 PM   #2313
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post

Didn't want to "hang out" with a gang of outlaws? WTF? She's Batgirl, she's already a vigilante and she founded the team. I get wanting to re-establishing herself as a hero in the field again but what Swiercyznski says makes no sense and once again to me has to do with this screwy timeline.
Isn't that black canary this time around?
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Old November 19 2011, 09:16 PM   #2314
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

If it's Tuesday on Earth-47, it must be Dinah Lance.
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Old November 19 2011, 09:28 PM   #2315
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I was talking to a friend about the changes about Wonder Woman's origin and he turned to me and said "that's interesting, does that mean she now has a vagina?"

I went "..em.. " and changed the subject.
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Old November 19 2011, 09:57 PM   #2316
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I say this as someone who's somewhat a fan of Wonder Woman, I think changing her origin in this manner somewhat gimps the power of her character. She went from being practically the Jesus of her people in having a clean, immaculate, birth so thus pretty much a goddess to being, well, a bastard child.

There's something a bit more nicely mythological and "neat" about her being molded from clay and then given birth by the Gods, now she's just another statistic in the WIC system.

I wonder where/if the story will go anywhere with this new change or if it'll be ret-coned back. I mean this change is tantamount to making Batman's parents still alive or saying Superman is an earth-born accident of genetics.

Changing the origin in this manner pretty much changes the entire character and everything she's supposed to mean. I also wonder if Wonder Woman's more infinite compassion for everyone will come out more. Up until now she's been sort of a ... Bitch.

And... I pretty sure in spite of her (original) origins Wonder Woman always had a vagina.
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Old November 19 2011, 10:01 PM   #2317
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

It'll only be retconned back if they go back to the previous continuity. I would disagree about the new origin I think it makes her a much more interesting character while still maintaining her mythological aspects. As mentioned prior it also gives her parental issues. Diana now is a demi-goddess (is that the right term?) and half sister to Hercules who has always played a nefarious role in the lives of the Amazons in the previous continuity. Making Zeus her father opens up a myriad of story possibilities which is what this new relaunch is supposedly meant to do.
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Old November 19 2011, 10:08 PM   #2318
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I don't see how it makes her a more interesting character. There are about 100 million characters out there with parental issues due to their parents producing out of wed-lock after a night of passion.

It was more interesting, to me, that she was something of a more mythical creature. And I think a "ret-con" could be done without having to reboot the comic again. They can try and to change it back by explaining the new story as a lie or simply just shrug and change it.
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Old November 19 2011, 10:08 PM   #2319
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Demi-goddess is probably the right term, but there are certainly half-human characters in Greek myth who are full-on deities: Hercules, for one (although he's made a god at the end of his life) or Dionysus. She's just as mythical now, but her origins are in closer sync with the bulk of Greek myth. The clay origin always had a faint whiff of Judeo-Christian Adam about it.
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Old November 19 2011, 10:11 PM   #2320
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I really don't think they're going to retcon something that is obviously supposed to give Diana a link to the Gods which is what i think the intention of this was. This also makes Wonder Girl...Cassie's origin even more interesting in Teen Titans. We can agree to disagree about the origin. I like it. One of the few changes in the New 52 that I actually do like.
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Old November 20 2011, 12:04 AM   #2321
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I was talking to a friend about the changes about Wonder Woman's origin and he turned to me and said "that's interesting, does that mean she now has a vagina?"

I went "..em.. " and changed the subject.
Is your friend usually that um...odd or was that a one off slimy comment?
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Old November 20 2011, 01:13 AM   #2322
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

I like how they're handling Wonder Woman's origin. Having an actual father doesn't make her less special or less of anything for that matter, it just means that a man-made myth has been exposed as false. Storywise, that's more interesting than having her molded out of clay, which I thought was a bit silly to begin with. Besides, I never knew that Diana was seen as "special" in that messianic sort of way just because of the circumstances of her birth. If she was, then I say once again, good ridance to an old myth. The idea that no one is born special or above the rest is, I think, a good lesson in general.
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Old November 20 2011, 03:17 AM   #2323
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
...having her molded out of clay, which I thought was a bit silly to begin with.
That much sillier than:

An alien who looks exactly like a human is granted nearly limitless powers due simply to the color of sun we have?

A billionaire who is capable of making or acquiring fabulous and versatile gadgets to fight crime without being caught or tracked by the law?

An "amphibious" man from the bottom of the ocean?

An alien race capable of creating any object they want with thought through a ring?

Just my personal opinion the "made from clay" thing is much more magical, mythical and interesting to me than her simply being a bastard child. Hell, I'd dare say it's on-par with some of the more interesting origin stories from aspects of the Marvel universe.

To each his own, I'm probably only going to give WW a couple more issues to see if it's going to go anywhere interesting. Her origin is mostly a minor thing just, for me, the comic has yet to be that interesting.
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Old November 20 2011, 03:25 AM   #2324
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
The idea that no one is born special or above the rest is, I think, a good lesson in general.
It's certainly comfortably current and reassuring. The essence of myth is something else again. But then, I never read any kind of fiction looking for good lessons.

Of course, having a god for a father isn't moving in the direction of not being "born special," any more than being the only child saved from the destruction of his world by a brilliant father is.
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Old November 20 2011, 03:26 AM   #2325
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Re: DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Just my personal opinion the "made from clay" thing is much more magical, mythical and interesting to me than her simply being a bastard child. Hell, I'd dare say it's on-par with some of the more interesting origin stories from aspects of the Marvel universe.
Actually being a child of Zeus is generally more mythical as Hercules and half of Greek mythology can testify to.
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