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Old March 14 2011, 08:33 PM   #1
Captain59
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"Course: Oblivion"

This is an exciting episode as much as it's depressing. I've probably seen it five times, and each time I'm hoping in the end, they catch a glimpse of the copy Voyager for just a second. If they had any idea what that ship was, they would probably look for places and people they contacted, and pieced together what they did. But with not even the time capsule, there's nothing. I think in the very least the writers could have left some trace of them. It's depressing that nothing they did is recorded anywhere.

Actually, the people they encountered would have records, and if some day the Federation meets these people again, and sees Voyager was supposedly there when it really wasn't because it was the copy, their exisitance could be discovered.

But don't the real crew members know they were copied?
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Old March 14 2011, 08:48 PM   #2
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Captain59 wrote: View Post
But don't the real crew members know they were copied?
I think that they thought that the bio-mimetic copies would have been destroyed on the Demon planet.

And don't they get the Mimic-Voyager's logs at the end from the wreckage? I thought they did.
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Old March 14 2011, 09:31 PM   #3
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

mairbeariepie wrote: View Post
I think that they thought that the bio-mimetic copies would have been destroyed on the Demon planet.

And don't they get the Mimic-Voyager's logs at the end from the wreckage? I thought they did.
You could be right about them thinking the copies would have been destroyed, I'm not sure. But the real crew got nothing from the copies. The logs were destroyed by the molecular breakdown when the launching mechanism malfunctioned. You're left to believe there is nothing anywhere to show or prove the copies ever existed, which is the dramatic affect the writers intended. I think that sucks! But...there are people out there who encountered the copies. I tend to believe some day, some one will put two and two together and realize Voyager couldn't be at two places at the same time, see what the make up of the debris was, and figure it all out.
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Old March 15 2011, 03:17 AM   #4
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

This is a very dramatic ep. with a dramatic and intense ending that the writers cooked-up. The depressing ending didn't come from the writers though but, rather, the bio-mimetic Janeway. After their world started breaking-down it was very believable the ship had enough containment to turn around and return home to the Demon planet. It was Janeway who became adverse to logic and she sent Voyager and crew into the danger zone. This she managed to do for the entire series. Even after it was all done, and the only remaining officers was severely damaged Seven and Harry Kim, it is amazing that the ship would've remained stable enough to reach the Demon planet and, no doubt, smash into it. This became impossible after Harry ordered that the core be dumped. If Harry's trajectory was that exact perhaps the cloud glided at near warp-speed until it eventually found the Demon planet.
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Old March 15 2011, 04:22 AM   #5
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

The idea that everyone forgot they were copies was an unbelievable contrivance for the story, but aside from that, I liked the episode idea of following this copy crew in a dire situation that throughout the episode kept losing hope, and eventually all they wanted was to be seen by Voyager to be remembered, and they couldn't even get that.
It was a fun and cheesy episode at times with the drippy makeup, but also a bit creepy and unsettling, and ends quite sadly. I was thoroughly shocked that the writers had the courage to write such a downer ending where the crew didn't manage to contact Voyager. I actually quite liked that.
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Old March 15 2011, 01:13 PM   #6
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
The idea that everyone forgot they were copies was an unbelievable contrivance for the story, .
Not really. The first we saw the copies, the Tom and Harry copies didn't know they were copies from the off.
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Old March 15 2011, 01:38 PM   #7
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

The_Baron wrote: View Post
BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
The idea that everyone forgot they were copies was an unbelievable contrivance for the story, .
Not really. The first we saw the copies, the Tom and Harry copies didn't know they were copies from the off.
That's true, and that was fine. But there are several problems after this point.

First of all, Demon implies that most of the copies on the planet were created from raw DNA samples, and not copied directly from a complete being. Most of the crew should never have been under the illusion that they were ever the original, because they shouldn't have had a copy of the original memory like Tom and Harry did. I don't know why any of the other characters would have been anything like their real counterparts personality wise. But the cloning of the crew wasn't specifically seen on screen, so maybe you can ignore this point.
Secondly, Tom and Harry knew they were copies before the others were made. How does a collective crew of ~150 manage to all forget that they are copies? Memory loss is one thing, but for all of them to selectively forget that they came from goo on a fire planet instead of from Earth, yet otherwise seem to remember their entire lives and everything needed to function without suspecting anything doesn't seem believable to me. If one of them forgets, another reminds them. Maybe it's not something that gets mentioned all that much, but we're talking 150 people here, not a handful.
And what about the Doctor? He was a computer program. How did he forget that they were copies? I know that they were close enough to human to not be immediately detectable, but he would have known they were copies either from all the time they spent on the demon planet before leaving breathing crazy atmosphere. He would have known somehow, and he shouldn't have forgotten. The notion of his program selectively degrading and forgetting a few months of time is even less plausible than the human crew.

Aside from that, I really liked the episode, but the concept seemed contrived.
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Old March 15 2011, 03:27 PM   #8
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
The_Baron wrote: View Post
BlobVanDam wrote: View Post
The idea that everyone forgot they were copies was an unbelievable contrivance for the story, .
Not really. The first we saw the copies, the Tom and Harry copies didn't know they were copies from the off.
That's true, and that was fine. But there are several problems after this point.

First of all, Demon implies that most of the copies on the planet were created from raw DNA samples, and not copied directly from a complete being. Most of the crew should never have been under the illusion that they were ever the original, because they shouldn't have had a copy of the original memory like Tom and Harry did. I don't know why any of the other characters would have been anything like their real counterparts personality wise. But the cloning of the crew wasn't specifically seen on screen, so maybe you can ignore this point.
Secondly, Tom and Harry knew they were copies before the others were made. How does a collective crew of ~150 manage to all forget that they are copies? Memory loss is one thing, but for all of them to selectively forget that they came from goo on a fire planet instead of from Earth, yet otherwise seem to remember their entire lives and everything needed to function without suspecting anything doesn't seem believable to me. If one of them forgets, another reminds them. Maybe it's not something that gets mentioned all that much, but we're talking 150 people here, not a handful.
And what about the Doctor? He was a computer program. How did he forget that they were copies? I know that they were close enough to human to not be immediately detectable, but he would have known they were copies either from all the time they spent on the demon planet before leaving breathing crazy atmosphere. He would have known somehow, and he shouldn't have forgotten. The notion of his program selectively degrading and forgetting a few months of time is even less plausible than the human crew.

Aside from that, I really liked the episode, but the concept seemed contrived.
I assumed because they weren't human nor humanoid and just Jello, that their brains(or what passes for a brain) doesn't function the way ours does. It also seemed like once they got an idea in their head, they seemed to dwell on it almost obsessively. So because they obsessively wanted to be "real", they believed their own fiction as fact. Being something other than Jello was a new sensation that consumed their thoughts.


That's my best guess.
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Old March 15 2011, 03:43 PM   #9
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Because it wasn't Voyager...it was Soyager.
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Old March 15 2011, 05:14 PM   #10
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Shatnertage wrote: View Post
Because it wasn't Voyager...it was Soyager.


The hardest thing for me to get over about this episode is that ever since the events of "Demon," there have been two separate ships called Voyager out in the Delta Quadrant (see what I did there, shatnertage, I said called Voyager, because we know one is actually Soyager! ). Obviously they were taking different paths on their way back to the Alpha Quadrant, and encountered different species. I guess we are supposed to believe that space is so vast that in that time, no 2 Voyagers met the same species? I'd love to see some continuity with this, have Voyager encounter a DQ baddie who's trying to settle a score with who they think is Voyager, but our real Voyager has no record of ever having met them.

It just seems crazy that this wouldn't have been Reason Number One not to give up the dna in "Demon" to begin with. Guess the writers always knew they'd drop this plot like they do most of the others...
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Old March 15 2011, 11:35 PM   #11
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Something we find in Star Trek is copy stuff or copy 'matter'. This is holo-deck imagery, the HD 25 isomorphic projection and now it is mimetic fluid. it seems mimetic fluid is much more advanced than the other two. It is independent of computer processing and seems to be the result of advanced chemistry as well as particle physics. Since it's copy is so thorough and original, remembering anything wouldn't be part of the copy process. Whoever play'd around with this stuff sure knew what he was doing. Copying Voyager and crew 'hook, line and sinker' didn't present a problem. I guess the problem was making it stay for a long time.
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Old March 16 2011, 05:02 AM   #12
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

However, why didn't they know they were copies was the least of my worries.

The one thing I'm surprised nobody questioned was: How did the goop mimic anti-matter?
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Old March 16 2011, 05:33 AM   #13
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

exodus wrote: View Post
However, why didn't they know they were copies was the least of my worries.

The one thing I'm surprised nobody questioned was: How did the goop mimic anti-matter?
A wizard did it.
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Old March 16 2011, 02:58 PM   #14
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Brikar99 wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
However, why didn't they know they were copies was the least of my worries.

The one thing I'm surprised nobody questioned was: How did the goop mimic anti-matter?
A wizard did it.
Oh, I like wizards!!!
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Old March 16 2011, 09:15 PM   #15
Lord Manitou
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Re: "Course: Oblivion"

Captain59 wrote-
You could be right about them thinking the copies would have been destroyed, I'm not sure. But the real crew got nothing from the copies. The logs were destroyed by the molecular breakdown when the launching mechanism malfunctioned. You're left to believe there is nothing anywhere to show or prove the copies ever existed, which is the dramatic affect the writers intended.
I think what Exodus says is part of the nature of this episode. Whenever the ship and crew encountered a new species and Voyager resorted to defending itself or fending away verbal threats, the enemy will, most of the time, default to the premise that Voyager is too complicated to be dealt with or is otherwise non-compatable.
Therefore, knowledge about holodeck or anti-matter engineering was partially blocked or repressed. Their super advanced warp-field was, most likely, missing a few umlauts. This could have effected structural integrity. There were several good reasons the mimemic crew and Voyager weren't doomed. Following a drastic course to the Alpha Quadrant wasn't one of them.
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