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Old September 10 2011, 05:18 PM   #76
Christopher
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

We know Tobin Dax spent some time on Vulcan, which suggests a first Trill contact sometime in the late 22nd century or earlier. Star Charts interprets the "Trillius Prime" visited by Travis Mayweather's ship sometime before ENT as the Trill homeworld. The Lives of Dax has a Trill/Vulcan first contact taking place in 2075, although it includes a young T'Pau among the Vulcans involved, contradicting ENT, which gave T'Pau's birth year as 2122. (However, this is easily reconciled by assuming there was more than one person named T'Pau.)
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Old September 10 2011, 09:16 PM   #77
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Christopher wrote: View Post
As for Trek Lit evidence, the earliest appearance of a Betazoid interacting with the Federation seems to be 2316 according to Well of Souls -- the year when Rachel Garrett met her Betazoid future husband. So it must've been before then.
There's a Betazoid character in Cast No Shadow, and that takes place in 2300.
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Old September 10 2011, 09:24 PM   #78
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

^Oh, that's right. I've become too dependent on Memory Alpha and Beta to do my remembering for me, and I guess Cast No Shadow is too recent for Beta to be fully updated yet.
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Old September 10 2011, 09:33 PM   #79
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Christopher wrote: View Post
We know Tobin Dax spent some time on Vulcan, which suggests a first Trill contact sometime in the late 22nd century or earlier. Star Charts interprets the "Trillius Prime" visited by Travis Mayweather's ship sometime before ENT as the Trill homeworld. The Lives of Dax has a Trill/Vulcan first contact taking place in 2075, although it includes a young T'Pau among the Vulcans involved, contradicting ENT, which gave T'Pau's birth year as 2122. (However, this is easily reconciled by assuming there was more than one person named T'Pau.)
Could T'Pau have been speaking of nebulous Vulcan years in Enterprise?
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Old September 10 2011, 09:35 PM   #80
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Christopher wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Do we know when the Federation made first contact with the Betazoids?
No. The abandoned opening sequence from The Undiscovered Country would've had Kirk warning Chekov against playing chess (poker?) against a Betazoid, which would've pegged it before 2293 (and that scene is included in The Fearful Summons), but canonically there's no evidence locking it down.

As for Trek Lit evidence, the earliest appearance of a Betazoid interacting with the Federation seems to be 2316 according to Well of Souls -- the year when Rachel Garrett met her Betazoid future husband. So it must've been before then.
For whatever it's worth, Geoff Mandel's Star Trek Star Charts lists Betazed as being admitted to the UFP in 2273.
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Old September 10 2011, 09:55 PM   #81
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

And we know that approximately 150 years before Articles of the Federation (so some time circa 2230), a female Trill named Madza Bral became the first Federation President who wasn't from one of the five founding worlds of Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, or Alpha Centauri. (I'm presuming that those worlds' colony worlds are included in that statement, just because I find it hard to believe that every President for 70 years came from only five worlds.)

Since Federation President is an awfully important post to elect someone from a new world to, I would speculate that this indicates that Trill was fairly well-integrated into the Federation by 2230.
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Old September 10 2011, 11:07 PM   #82
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

^Why is it so hard to believe that all the Presidents came from only 5 worlds? The first 15 US Presidents all came from the original 13 colonies (and only from a handful of them at that), which actually equates out to about the first 70 years of US history.
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Old September 10 2011, 11:39 PM   #83
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Sci wrote: View Post
Since Federation President is an awfully important post to elect someone from a new world to, I would speculate that this indicates that Trill was fairly well-integrated into the Federation by 2230.
Which is hard to reconcile with their portrayal in "The Host" as a species the Federation was still largely ignorant about. But then, a lot of stuff from "The Host" was retconned away by DS9, like the Trill's original appearance, their inability to go safely through transporters, the fact that the personality seemed to come entirely from the symbiont and the hosts were practically zombies until joined, etc.
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Old September 11 2011, 01:43 AM   #84
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

21Spike65 wrote: View Post
^Why is it so hard to believe that all the Presidents came from only 5 worlds?
Because 5 is less than 13, and because we already know that those 5 worlds have colony worlds that are considered part of their territory. It's hard to buy the idea that no one from those colony worlds would be ambitious enough and successful enough to ascend to the Presidency but people from the home worlds would be.

Frankly, I also find it kind of hard to think that it would take 70 years for someone from outside the five founding worlds' territories to make it to the Presidency, just as a function of numbers. By the 2230s, you would think that subsequent Member worlds would outnumber the founding Members, and that thus their citizens wouldn't be inclined to only vote for people from those founding Members. (And, no, the experience of the United States's first seven decades isn't applicable to this issue, because the United States wasn't a true democracy until the 20th Century.)

But, hey, it's been established that Madza Bral was the first non-founding Member citizen to be elected President, so the best way to mitigate the mathematical improbability of that idea is to suggest that plenty of the Presidents in those 70 years were from the founding Members' colonies. We might also speculate that some of them were descended from immigrant families -- so, for instance, there might have been, say, a Denobulan citizen of United Earth, born and raised in Buenos Aires, who became Federation President yet was still considered to be from one of the founding Member worlds.

The first 15 US Presidents all came from the original 13 colonies (and only from a handful of them at that), which actually equates out to about the first 70 years of US history.
It's arguable whether or not it's accurate to say that the first 15 U.S. Presidents were "from" the first 13 states. Andrew Jackson, the 7th President, was born in either North or South Carolina (evidence is unclear), but when he became President, he was a citizen of the State of Tennessee, where he'd lived since he was 20 (before it even became a state). And William Henry Harrison, the 9th President, was a citizen of the State of Ohio, though he had been born born in Virginia and had served as governor of Indiana when it was a territory. James Polk, the 11th President, was also a citizen of Tennessee, where he'd lived since he was 11. Zachary Taylor, President #12, started his life in Virginia, spent most of his formative years in Kentucky, gained prominence in the U.S. Army, and was a citizen of the State of Louisiana when he became President.

That does present an interesting question -- might we interpret the line in AotF as including to people who started out on the five founding worlds but later moved to other Member worlds? Might there have been a President who was born on Andor and later moved to, say, Rigel before becoming President?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Since Federation President is an awfully important post to elect someone from a new world to, I would speculate that this indicates that Trill was fairly well-integrated into the Federation by 2230.
Which is hard to reconcile with their portrayal in "The Host" as a species the Federation was still largely ignorant about. But then, a lot of stuff from "The Host" was retconned away by DS9, like the Trill's original appearance, their inability to go safely through transporters, the fact that the personality seemed to come entirely from the symbiont and the hosts were practically zombies until joined, etc.
I'm inclined to just ignore everything in "The Host" at this point. It looks to have been as retconned as what "The Alternate Factor"'s depiction of antimatter.
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Old September 11 2011, 03:19 AM   #85
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

I tend to think of the bumpy-headed Trill hosts in "The Host" as the Trill equivalent of early hominids, a less intelligent subspecies that still has a very few surviving members. Although that can explain every discrepancy except the Federation's apparent unfamiliarity with the Trill.
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Old September 11 2011, 03:39 AM   #86
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Wasn't there a line in Forged in Fire about the Klingon Augment virus affecting a Trill colony?
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Old September 12 2011, 04:24 PM   #87
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

We could just as easily claim that the bumpheads are one of three already known host species: human, bumphead, spothead. The symbionts are obviously compatible with at least those three to some degree, even though they choose to lie about compatibility as explicated in "Equilibrium". None of those three need be considered "species Trill", except when actually playing a role in the culture of planet Trill, the predominant lifeform of which is the species Trill, that is, the symbiont.

The rest of "The Host" is basically classic Trill stuff: they're secretive, they lie about things that could expose the symbionts, the hosts are really anxious about the joining thing and may act strangely at such an occasion, etc.

Whether such people would make for good early UFP Presidents is anybody's guess. A predisposition towards fluent lying for a greater cause shouldn't be considered an obstacle, at any rate!

(And, no, the experience of the United States's first seven decades isn't applicable to this issue, because the United States wasn't a true democracy until the 20th Century.)
So perhaps the UFP isn't, either?

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Old September 13 2011, 01:39 AM   #88
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Timo wrote: View Post
(And, no, the experience of the United States's first seven decades isn't applicable to this issue, because the United States wasn't a true democracy until the 20th Century.)
So perhaps the UFP isn't, either?

Timo Saloniemi
Doesn't wash. Sci is (presumably) referring to the fact that there were many obstacles to voting in American history prior to the 20th century including race and gender. I find it preposterous that the UFP would not have universal suffrage from the very moment of its conception.

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Old September 13 2011, 01:49 AM   #89
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

And are the spotted Trill related to the Kriosians shown in "The Perfect Mate" TNG?
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Old September 13 2011, 06:52 AM   #90
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Re: Could a Lost Era set between 2161 and 2265 work?

Aaron McGuire wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
(And, no, the experience of the United States's first seven decades isn't applicable to this issue, because the United States wasn't a true democracy until the 20th Century.)
So perhaps the UFP isn't, either?

Timo Saloniemi
Doesn't wash. Sci is (presumably) referring to the fact that there were many obstacles to voting in American history prior to the 20th century including race and gender. I find it preposterous that the UFP would not have universal suffrage from the very moment of its conception.
Exactly.
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