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Old August 6 2011, 09:34 AM   #61
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

It looks like it's a thin line between forced annexation and conquering.

I know that there was no war between the two, but I always got the impression the Cardassians forced themselves on Bajor.

I looked it up and can't find a definite explanation of exactly how it happened.

But if the Bajorans said something like, 'please leave us now', and the Cardassians continued anyway, then the Cardassians violated Bajor's sovereignty.

The Federation says it all happened within Cardassia, so they can't/won't help.

So here's the flip side;

The Dominion war is going badly.
Everyone is getting pissed off that the Romulans won't do anything.(The Romulans already signed a treaty with the Dominion.)

Sisko knows the Romulans are going to mind their own business, but after Betazed falls, he decides to convince the Romulans to join the war on their side.

When they said no, Sisko then decides he going to trick them into going to war. With Starfleet's blessing.

Hypocrisy, or something totally different?
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Old August 6 2011, 09:37 AM   #62
Paradon
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Using military forces won't solve anything long term... A lot of the time, we ignore that their is a much deeper problem that is deeply rooted in the culture and people that led to war and genocide. You can't fix it over night...there is no one, two, three cure for building a country and changing the people and its culture attitudes. These things takes time and the more you rush, the more mistakes you will make because you overlooked something that cause someone to get hurt and thus inadvertently pissed off a bunch of people. The best we can do is offer advice and diplomacy to all the factions, hoping to find some other resolutions. We should stay away from things like nation building because it's dangerous. WE might make an already unstable and dangerous situation worse and turn it into a full blown war and genocide. Not only that it cost a lot of money. No nations can afford that, not even the U.S. We also be jeopardizing our economy on problems that we can't fix.
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Old August 6 2011, 12:01 PM   #63
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

sonak wrote: View Post
Again, no Galactic Law worth anything would allow annexation by force just because there's a treaty. ANY conquered country has to sign a surrender which involves turning over territory to the conqueror, but that doesn't mean it's legal. You're saying if the UFP knew a Cardassian fleet had crossed into the Bajoran sector, started landing troops in the capital, etc. that they couldn't lift a finger once an annexation treaty was signed? That's ludicrous. That's an interpretation of the "law" which would clearly favor any aggressor.


Could you imagine if that were true? The Cardassians, Romulans, etc. would just be like "great, let's go conquering away, once we make the poor saps we've conquered sign something called a "treaty of annexation" the Federation can't interfere!"
The Cardassians didn't just send a fleet to Bajor and force them to sign an annexation formalization to justify it, they had been on Bajor for years. They arrived first to say "We just want to help you" and the Bajorans welcomed them, then as the years went on they got more and more controlling (coinciding with the fall of the more peaceful Cardassian civilization and the rise of the Central Command) until they formally annexed the world.

So it was a long-term situation that started out peacefully and without the military occupation, with the Bajorans formally giving them presence. Then it all went sour.
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Old August 6 2011, 01:58 PM   #64
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
I'm not convinced money or religion or any other "tangible" factor you can point to is the cause of the problems with humanity...I think it's human nature itself. If you take away one excuse for conflict, we're great at finding a new one. I am convinced discrimination still takes place on Earth--but most importantly, rather than seeing our "us and them" as a matter of internal race/religion/ideology, etc., humanity and the Federation still DOES have an "us and them" mentality but towards the other species out there. They pushed it outward but did not get rid of the problem. Thinking that they did will only get them in trouble.
You got a very good point there and well you said it " It's human nature" but Interestingly the Federation is made of not just humans but other races so be good to see how our values conflict with theirs. Anyways at end of day the Federation is not like the Borg striving for complete perfection because the Federation is made up of humans or humanoid beings and in nature nothing is perfect, so you will always have people in charge of governments that will make mistakes and the Federation is not an exception, it's all about learning from those mistakes, which I hope they do
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Old August 6 2011, 03:12 PM   #65
T'Girl
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Anwar wrote: View Post
If they're advanced enough to be of any real help as allies, then they can ask the Federation for assistance
Unless they were wiped out prior to being technologically able to ask.

The people the Federation helps today, are the same people who will be powerful allies a century from now.

Anwar wrote: View Post
In "Homeward" it would have taken thousands of starships working around the clock to evacuate that planet
But only if these starships were available. If they were, so much the better, but likely that many would not be both in the area of the planet and also not needed elsewhere. So Starfleet would simply make use of the resources that could be brought to bear. If there were a baker's dozen of large starships and each could make a dozen trips, we might remove a quarter of a million people, refuges, from the doomed planet. If the planet were perhaps in the core of the federation, with additional civilian ships nearby, the number of refuges could rise into the millions.

Or, a single starship, making a single trip would save only hundreds.

They would then have to find a new world for them to inhabit
Which makes the assumption that the refuges are going to be simply given a entire planet. There's also the possibility that the refuges would be taken to a uninhabited section of a Federation members planet (homeworld or existing colony) and established there. A third possibility is, given the refuges previous technology level, they would be partially or fully brought into the Federation civilization.

with their culture intact
This would be an important factor, If you simply pull a relatively small number off at the last minute, my thought is that Starfleet should evacuate the population of a university, one where there are schools of both cultural studies and history. There would be a mixture of elders and (usually) lots of healthy young people, to built again the indigenous culture.

Setting aside the Star Trek concept of the "one culture planet," I wonder if going for maximum diversity might in this case work against the intent. Starfleet may wish to extract people in intact cultural units, if they could only remove say five thousand people, they would pull them from one culture and one region. A more expansive evacuation could remove both more people and more cultures, but again the more people would come from cultural "blocks."

would set a new precedent in that it's what Starfleet MUST do
Well a precedent as to what Starfleet could do, in situations where the transport assets were available, and there was nothing more pressing happening. I would imagine that during the Dominion War a major evacuation would have been out of the question.

ultimately weakening the Federation in an obvious way that their enemies would clearly notice
But independent star systems and neutral star republics (some quite large) would notice as well, some of whom might be considering treaties with,and even future membership in, the Federation.

This would show that the Federation is composed of compassionate people, people who you might wish to associate yourselves with.

created various dependent Vassals who can't survive on their own
This kind of control mentality would be something to watch out for.

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Old August 6 2011, 04:01 PM   #66
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Wow, that was pretty good T'Girl. I hadn't considered the possibilities of neutral parties siding more with the Federation in the light of their actions, possibly to the extent that it would deter their more hostile neighbors from taking advantage (offsetting the weakness the evacuations would do to them).
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Old August 6 2011, 06:05 PM   #67
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Nerroth wrote: View Post
One day, it would indeed be interesting if the Franchise was able to take a look at a compelling counterpart to the Federation, in the sense of there being another multi-species democracy out there that would have its own set of ideas as to how to go about their business; but finding the right place for such a story to be told would be the real trick.
Exactly the point I was making: the writers never had the courage to show what the Federation looked like in comparison to other "white hats." We only saw them compared to tyrants and outright bigots, so of course the conclusion people draw from that--before looking deeper--is that the Federation is a perfect knight in shining armor. Credible opposition would reveal the ugly side fast.
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Old August 6 2011, 06:26 PM   #68
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

In my opinion it is what it is.. Personally I was annoyed with naive Starfleet officers like Julian freaking Bashir who want to cling to morality at expense of survival. Bottom line is this, the Federation IS no different than any other race when it comes to survival. If it is between morality and survival, Survival will and should always win. We saw it in In the Pale Moonlight - no Romulans = Federation loss. Saw it in Extreme Measures - Genocidal Founder Killing disease? The Federation was on the verge of collapse. Ransom and his aliens in Equinox.. yes his justification was completely wrong morally, but in the case of survival seemed like the best option at the time.

Bashir said once "so what we are saying is that we are no different than our enemies? That we forget our principles blah blah blah..." Yes, Dr., because if we clung to the rules of war and morality there would BE no Federation. It would have been conquered centuries ago. I am glad DS9 devoted entire episodes to this dynamic because it really irks me personally (I REALLY REALLY dont like Bashir).
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Old August 6 2011, 06:57 PM   #69
cwl
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
And that right there is a very disturbing thing: that the Federation counts conquerors like the Klingons as its allies. That to me proves that the Federation, for all its ideals, is almost as pragmatic in practice as the Cardassian Union.

the Klingon Empire is a most great and honourable Empire.
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Old August 6 2011, 07:12 PM   #70
Anwar
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Klingon Honor, not human honor.
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Old August 6 2011, 08:23 PM   #71
cwl
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Klingon Honor, not human honor.
Klingons have no interest in the honour of mere humans.

For the Glory of the Empire. Long Live the Empire.
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Old August 6 2011, 09:29 PM   #72
Paradon
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Sisko4Life wrote: View Post
In my opinion it is what it is.. Personally I was annoyed with naive Starfleet officers like Julian freaking Bashir who want to cling to morality at expense of survival. Bottom line is this, the Federation IS no different than any other race when it comes to survival. If it is between morality and survival, Survival will and should always win. We saw it in In the Pale Moonlight - no Romulans = Federation loss. Saw it in Extreme Measures - Genocidal Founder Killing disease? The Federation was on the verge of collapse. Ransom and his aliens in Equinox.. yes his justification was completely wrong morally, but in the case of survival seemed like the best option at the time.

Bashir said once "so what we are saying is that we are no different than our enemies? That we forget our principles blah blah blah..." Yes, Dr., because if we clung to the rules of war and morality there would BE no Federation. It would have been conquered centuries ago. I am glad DS9 devoted entire episodes to this dynamic because it really irks me personally (I REALLY REALLY dont like Bashir).
The reasons that the aliens don't trust humans is because we are hypocrites and don't always what is right and practice what they preach. It sounds vane, the words had no meaning, when you preach about tolerance, peace and doing no harm, but behind everyone's back you are out doing things like removing a bunch of alien race from a planet in secrecy in order to take over their planet and planted false evidence on some alien politicians to get rid of them because they don't support the idea of making policies that will benefit the Federation. If you believe in your ideal, stick to your gun and people will take your seriously. This is why it is important to stay neutral, not siding with any powers, because then it shows you are serious about not harming anyone and that everyone is entitled to their opinions...that you see everyone as equal and respect everyone's opinion. Respecting people and their opinions is a better way to gain someone's respect and trust. They are less likely to attack you.
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Old August 7 2011, 12:09 AM   #73
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Sisko4Life wrote: View Post
In my opinion it is what it is.. Personally I was annoyed with naive Starfleet officers like Julian freaking Bashir who want to cling to morality at expense of survival. Bottom line is this, the Federation IS no different than any other race when it comes to survival. If it is between morality and survival, Survival will and should always win. We saw it in In the Pale Moonlight - no Romulans = Federation loss.
Definitely, which is why when the Starfleet officers lecture other cultures, they will be interpreted as hypocrites, at least by some fans.

Comparing the actions In The Pale Moonlight against what Data said in The Last Outpost, you can see it;

Data: They should add also that Starfleet has refused to prevent several civilizations from falling; we have sometimes let the violent and strong overcome the weak...
Or even Janeway-- an alien culture had a technology that could send her ship right home. They wouldn't share it-- they had the same type of restrictions as the P.D.

Janeway kept asking, and asking, and actually looked p'd off in the end when they kept refusing.

Janeway: It's the first time we've been on the other side of the fence. How many times have we been in the position of refusing to interfere when some kind of disaster threatened an alien culture? It's all very well to say we do it on the basis of an enlightened principle. But how does that feel to the aliens?
BTW, her crew ignored the restriction and got their hands on it anyway...
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Old August 7 2011, 02:14 AM   #74
Rush Limborg
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Indeed. Say what you will about the "black hats"--but at least they're consistent.

Or at least...more consistent than the UFP.
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Old August 7 2011, 02:22 AM   #75
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Re: The Federation Must Die.

Dudes, I'm pretty happy with the Federation and while it's not perfect, it's still the best deal out there by far. If you don't want to join, you don't have to. I don't remember seeing any Trek episode where someone was forced to join.

So c'mon out to my sector of the Federation with that negative attitude and I'll greet you in my liberal, tree-hugging, socialist way: with photo torpedos armed and locked.
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