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Old September 10 2013, 01:42 PM   #676
KaraBear
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I don't see what BSG has to do with Voyager other than they're both spaceships in different universes.
it's funny, I've heard a lot of people compare the two shows. Maybe because they're both about ships trying to reach earth. But really, how can you compare the shows? Their core principles are so different. BSG was basically the worst case scenario of the "future", no advanced technology, still had disease, poverty, petty bickering, and the bad guys won and destroyed everyone

Trek has always been the best case scenario of the future. Advanced technology, no disease that can't be easily cured, no starvation, nobody is poor, even the mentality of people is completely different.

that's why voyager always looked nice
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Old September 10 2013, 01:52 PM   #677
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
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That's a misinterpretation of the Queen. The Queen IS the Borg. The collective is self conscious. It's a giant brain. And the Queen is the result of that brain.

The Queen is not the leader of a Borg hive mind. She is the collective mind.

"The Borg" is/are a single individual represented by a female. And that individual was lonely. And Picard was amazing enough that she wanted him to be a special drone with individuality so she wouldn't be alone anymore.
Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.
Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").
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Old September 10 2013, 02:08 PM   #678
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Replaced?

Everyone on that ship would have been bumped up two grades, well the junior grades who have somewhere to be promoted to that isn't ridiculously beyond their actual capabilities... And since every position on that ship requires a specific rank... Lo they can't have a mere Ensign going about a mighty Lieutenants very difficult duties, they also can't have a Lieutenant wasting his (or her.) time doing the work of a mere simple dim Ensign. A mass of promotions would mean that there are no more junior officers and not enough room to retain all the new mid level officers, and the multitude rising to the flag ranks.

Taking all that as fact, which you can chose not to, Picard would probably have had to replace half his crew... Or Riker would have had to, since "crew" (human resources.) is what the bulk of the first officer's job is mostly about.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:50 AM   #679
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's a misinterpretation of the Queen. The Queen IS the Borg. The collective is self conscious. It's a giant brain. And the Queen is the result of that brain.

The Queen is not the leader of a Borg hive mind. She is the collective mind.

"The Borg" is/are a single individual represented by a female. And that individual was lonely. And Picard was amazing enough that she wanted him to be a special drone with individuality so she wouldn't be alone anymore.
Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.
Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").
Not sure if that works best, because if you shoot a bullet through a guy's brain it'll usually kill all of him. If you kill a bunch of Borg Drones I don't think that would result in a Cube's destruction.
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Old September 11 2013, 01:11 PM   #680
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post

Which would be a contradiction of what Hugh says in I, Borg. He talks about the voices (plural) of his brethren that he hears. They are not centered or centralized. They are collected. Indeed, that is in essence what was observed in previous episodes, that the strength of the borg was in not having any sort of centralization.
Again, not quite getting it. There is no centralization. Where is your consciousness centralized? See Borg drones as brain neurons communicating with each other. The grand result of that collective communication is one individual consciousness ("The Borg"), just like the interaction of all your brain cells results in one individual consciousness ("You").
Not sure if that works best, because if you shoot a bullet through a guy's brain it'll usually kill all of him. If you kill a bunch of Borg Drones I don't think that would result in a Cube's destruction.
The problem is that "hive" can be used euphemistically to describe numerous types of group interactions and decision making processes that it can differ greatly from the behavior of hive-based insects. Do the Borg literally live like bees, having their instincts written such that the objectives of the hive can't be affected by the input of individuals? the suggestion is that clearly in cannot be. On the other hand, Hugh's revelations about multiple voices makes it seem that the Borg cannot completely overwrite individual consciousness, perhaps integrating it and harmonizing it with the whole instead. Hugh's "On a Borg ship we live with the thoughts of the others in our minds. Thousands of voices with us always" stands in contradiction to the queen's "One order, one voice." There is a distinction between groupthink and a hive mind.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:27 PM   #681
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

^ Didn't the VOY episode Survival Instinct have something similar to what you describe with Hugh? Survival Instinct with the 3 former Borg drones who kept hearing the thoughts of the others in their little group. This after they were beginning to rediscover their individuality after being separated from the Collective.


The Queen does seem like a superfluous redundancy.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:29 PM   #682
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Didn't the VOY episode Survival Instinct have something similar to what you describe with Hugh? Survival Instinct with the 3 former Borg drones who kept hearing the thoughts of the others in their little group. This after they were beginning to rediscover their individuality after being separated from the Collective.


The Queen does seem like a superfluous redundancy.
Unimatrix Zero also is a contradiction. However, what Hugh describes is something normal to the Borg experiences. The Voyager episodes describe something that the Borg actively suppress. this is another area in which the hive analogy fails: the Borg consciousness is not natural, but forced.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:49 PM   #683
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Didn't the VOY episode Survival Instinct have something similar to what you describe with Hugh? Survival Instinct with the 3 former Borg drones who kept hearing the thoughts of the others in their little group. This after they were beginning to rediscover their individuality after being separated from the Collective.


The Queen does seem like a superfluous redundancy.
Unimatrix Zero also is a contradiction. However, what Hugh describes is something normal to the Borg experiences. The Voyager episodes describe something that the Borg actively suppress. this is another area in which the hive analogy fails: the Borg consciousness is not natural, but forced.
Troi said in "Q Who?" that she couldn't sense anything coming from the Borg Cube but one big mind. She couldn't sense any "Thousands of Voices", just one big one.

Seven herself said she couldn't hear the Borg voices anymore once she was removed from the Collective either.

The thing is, I think there are two different types of Borg:

1) "Born" Borg, ones who were never individuals but were born into the Collective (the babies seen in Q Who?). Apparently Hugh and everyone on his ship were "Born Borg" who were never individuals, which is why they were so massively affected by individuality and none of them reclaimed their pre-Collective lives. They had none.

2) Assimilated folks. These ones were forced into the Collective against their will and have to have their minds suppressed unnaturally because they're always resisting it. Total opposite of the "Born Borg".

The "Thousands of Voices" ones are the Born Borg who have no reason to resist and harmonize with one another. The Assimilated Ones actively resist and have to be suppressed.

The Queen was probably something that came about to keep the Assimilated Ones from disrupting the Collective too much.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:20 PM   #684
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar, the human brain also controls body functions and needs the greatest amount of blood. If you shoot a bullet in it, you destroy parts that control vital functions and lose blood, that's why you die. If the brain was independent from a body (like the Borg collective), the damage by a bullet would not destroy the consciousness. Certainly memories would be lost for example, but it would still function.
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Old September 11 2013, 06:29 PM   #685
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Destroy enough Neurons and physical bodies that the Consciousness needs to survive, and you do damage vital functions. Yet, killing a bunch of Borg drones would not hamper a Cube's functions.
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