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Old September 4 2013, 07:58 PM   #616
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Even then, the majority of the Dominion's military and resources weren't even brought into play during that war, being stuck in the Gamma Quadrant.

Really the only technological advantages the Dominion had were the ability to penetrate Federation shields, which took the Federation a couple years or so to counter, which I really have no problem with.

That long range transporter, which seemed rather limited in it's use, being they only transported one person at any given time. Otherwise they could just beam thousands of Jem'Hadar onto a planet from the next sector.

And of course their cloning technology. The ability to mass breed Jem'Hadar and Vorta makes a war of attrition against the Dominion all but impossible to win.

Really, it took a kamikazee run to take out the Odessey, which was really more a statement of the Jem'Hadar's resolve to destroy the enemy. Even if it's four years before they do that trick again.

But even the Dominion wasn't immune from the water down effect being Odo took out an attack ship in a runabout in Faith, Treachery and the Great River.

The water down effect unavoidably happens with many villains... it definitely did with Voyager and the Borg.
The Dominion's advantages weren't entirely technological. Their ability to conduct effective diplomacy and espionage were also things that made them more threatening. Overall, it's difficult to say that the Dominion was a threat on its own. Rather, they brought together a breadth of resources, skills and determination which were difficult to beat.
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Old September 4 2013, 08:12 PM   #617
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I guarantee you if Voyager never encountered the Borg the same people would be complaining about them being in the Delta Quadant and never encountering the Borg
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Old September 4 2013, 10:09 PM   #618
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

There's only one instance where I think that Voyager really weakened the Borg. Dark Frontier, at the end. Janeway threatens the Queen and she caves in? She should have said, "Death is irrelevant, assimilate them!", instead of letting them get away. Then Paris and/or Seven would have done something that would allow our heroes to escape.

Yes, in Unimatrix zero it's quite silly how the Queen starts blowing up cubes left and right (and that Janeways gets sad because of it!), but that was of their own doing.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:36 AM   #619
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Forgive me, but that's not an impressive list. We know nothing of the species that made the Doomsday Machine or the Whale Probe, and having the Doomsday Machine would not guarantee that the Borg would not assimilate the species.
The Whale Probe and the Doomsday Machine showed power in them that the Borg never displayed.

Moreover, we really don't have a basis for comparing how they would perform in armed combat with the Borg: the Whale Probe was no weapon, and the Doomsday Machine was able to be defeated by 23rd Century Federation technology and strategy.
The Whale Probe's communications system was enough to neutralize any technology it encountered, if mere Comms can do that then it's not much of a stretch to imagine what actual weapons made by its designers can do.

The Doomsday Machine sliced up planets. We've only ever seen the Borg scoop up cities.

V'Ger? Given that it was, in part, constructed by humans, a species assimilated in an alternative timeline, it's ability are difficult to compare.
Whoever augmented V'Ger are certainly way beyond the Borg seeing how V'ger displayed awesome powers we've never seen the Borg equal.

At the end, none of these are the species themselves, just bits of technology. Same thing with the T'Kon: it's not clear how they could defend themselves, and their ability to resist the Borg would be entirely a matter of speculation.
The T'Kon outpost was able to neutralize both a Galaxy Class and a Ferengi Marauder very casually. Even more casually than the Borg Cube in BOBW.

Simply put, they are unlikely to be adversaries to or a threat to the Borg, and the Borg would not try to assimilate them.
Which doesn't stop them from being far superior to the Borg.

The Borg offered no such dialogue, just a commitment to assimilate them. There was no room for negotiation.
Guinan said that one day dialog with the Borg would be possible.

Q and Guinan are "representatives" to the Borg? That's strong language.
They are, they were there to explain the Borg to the Feds because the writers themselves knew that a truly faceless foe just isn't workable without someone there to "speak" for them.

If the Borg were a VOY-exclusive enemy, and BOBW had been a VOY episode, no one would like it. Not a single person. And everyone would think the "Sleep" thing was the dumbest thing ever.

Also, if VOY ever used a Solar Flare to destroy a Borg ship like TNG did, no one would've liked that either and they'd all be whining over how the Borg should be able to survive that.
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Old September 5 2013, 11:32 AM   #620
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
If the Borg were a VOY-exclusive enemy, and BOBW had been a VOY episode, no one would like it. Not a single person. And everyone would think the "Sleep" thing was the dumbest thing ever.

Also, if VOY ever used a Solar Flare to destroy a Borg ship like TNG did, no one would've liked that either and they'd all be whining over how the Borg should be able to survive that.
That's a good point, Anwar - in TNG, the borg cubes were defeated by tricks no less forced than in Voy.

People tend criticize the elements of a movie/show based on how much they like the movie/show overall.
For example, few are critical of 'the wrath of khan', despite huge plot holes, quite stupid superhuman and experienced starfleet captain, casual mind control, etc.
With Voy, on the other hand - criticism galore.

As for the borg - the dominion:
The federation alliance dealt with only an expeditionary force, but this consisted of thousands of ships - a substantial fraction of the entire dominion might. NOT with only a dominion ship - consider how easily dispatched by starfleet such a ship would have been.

But starfleet ever only dealt with one cube (or something around that level of strength). NOT with a few hundred thousand cubes - which would be the equivalent to the dominion expeditionary force. Considering how much trouble it had with one cube - and the insignificantly small victories starfleet achieved, by comparison with the borg's numbers - the borg retain their status as the stronger foe.
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Old September 5 2013, 01:40 PM   #621
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
lots of point for point
The problem isn't so much the possibility of someone being more powerful than the borg, but rather what does it do to their status as villains if we go and write a story where something Bigger and Badder casually blows them away. (then Voyager goes and develops the weapon to kill the bigger and badder).
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Old September 5 2013, 02:43 PM   #622
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Borg ALWAYS had representatives, in nearly all their stories.

Q Who? Had Q and Guinan serve as their "reps". Explaining the Borg to the Feds.

BOBW had Locutus.

I, Borg and Descent had Hugh and Lore.
They are, they were there to explain the Borg to the Feds because the writers themselves knew that a truly faceless foe just isn't workable without someone there to "speak" for them.
You did not at first write that Guinan and Q served the literary convention of giving a mouthpiece to an otherwide anonymous enemy. You equated their roles, putting Guinan and Q into the same political position as Locutus. In a weak sense, Guinan and Q represent the Borg in that they explain what they can about the Borg. Locutus, on the other hand, is actually in the service of the Borg, their complete and literal representative. I guess that if I were teaching about about terrorists or guerrillas, it might be said--figuratively--that I represent what they stand for to the best of my ability. However, if someone said (borrowing your words), "Al Qaeda ALWAYS had representatives, in nearly all their stories," equating me with some radicalized figure, making cut-rate videos, spouting quasi-religious rhetoric while footage of training exercise played in the background, I would have every right to be furious. To call me such a representative would be a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Moreover, if Guinan was such a mouthpiece to the Borg that she could say with such certainty what the future intentions of the Borg were ("Guinan said that one day dialog with the Borg would be possible."), Picard should have thrown he in the brig as he investigated her as a spy: such direct knowledge of the Borg's intentions should have been suspect. Of course, Guinan doesn't know: she's speculating, though without much confidence. She isn't representing the Borg, not in the way you suggest.

As per whether the Federation should have been fearful of the Borg, the technological or metaphysical superiority of the race is not an indication of the threat that they might pose. Other than jockeying for geo-strategic advantage, the great powers--USA, Russia, China, UK and France--don't consider each other immediate threats simply because of their strength. Indeed, UK should not be threatened by USA in any way; whether the UK feels threatened by China should not be affected by the fact that USA has a military advantage over China. Indeed, over the last two decades, those powers have been threatened by lesser powers that might use force to create instability IN SPITE OF THEIR RELATIVE WEAKNESS. Some of those lesser powers aren't even nation-states; sometimes they are, at best, loosely organized. So I feel comfortable saying that the fact that their might be superior powers (and all your examples are debatable), that the Federation should not solely base their threat assessment of Borg solely on how they rank among the galaxy's power, but also based on what they intend to do and how they conduct themselves.

Last edited by Bad Thoughts; September 5 2013 at 02:58 PM.
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Old September 5 2013, 03:32 PM   #623
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Stoo wrote: View Post
The problem isn't so much the possibility of someone being more powerful than the borg
I think it is. Trek fans had gotten this idea in their minds that the Borg were some Universal Super-Threat, and as such the idea of there being any one race out there that could fight them on their own level was unforgivable to them.

That it was VOY, a series folks were already out to hate to begin with, that did this just added fuel to the fire.

but rather what does it do to their status as villains if we go and write a story where something Bigger and Badder casually blows them away. (then Voyager goes and develops the weapon to kill the bigger and badder).
I suppose if they'd had Q give them the weaponry, or they found some ancient alien tech on some old world, you'd like that more?

She isn't representing the Borg, not in the way you suggest.
She and Q served the same plot purpose, to explain the Borg and their history and motives to the characters and the audience.

So I feel comfortable saying that the fact that their might be superior powers (and all your examples are debatable), that the Federation should not solely base their threat assessment of Borg solely on how they rank among the galaxy's power, but also based on what they intend to do and how they conduct themselves
I'm saying the fandom shouldn't react so negatively to the idea of there being at least even ONE species out there that can fight the Borg, because it's ridiculous to think that the Borg are Galactic Threat No.1.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:14 PM   #624
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

That it was VOY, a series folks were already out to hate to begin with
I think this is a big point

I think the fact that something happened on Voyager is enough for people to criticise. People give voyager a hard time about things where TNG and DS9 did the same thing and people loved it.
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Old September 5 2013, 04:26 PM   #625
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
more point for point
You're doing that thing where you rail against your nebulous perception of fandom, so I'll just stick to my own opinion. My biggest problem with the handling of 8472 was Voyager coming up with the weapon that beats them. It made the borg look rather rubbish. 8472 ships blow borg apart with ease whilst Voyager survives a round of combat then returns fire and blows 8472 ships apart. If Voyager had stumbled across some ancient alien tech to enable their anti-8472 superweapon that would have been less annoying, albeit still a bit contrived.

honestly if I was writing such a story I'd just have 8472 and the Borg blasting seven hells out of each other, to some sort of stalemate or narrow victory. And Voyager simple doing its best to evade and survive.

The wider problem with the Borg was, we ended up just not that scared of them. Maybe because they were used too much, and thwarted too often. It was a serious case of what TV Tropes calls Villain Decay. (Who has a similar problem with Daleks) In which case, yeah, Voyager was at a disadvantage simply by being later to the party. Although more inventive writing could have helped.

We already knew there were entities out there that could overpower the Borg. We met a particularly godlike one in the TNG pilot! But a story like that has to be handled carefully in case it contributes to the Villain Decay. Maybe if the Borg got totally beaten, and then 8472 took over their space, that would be more interesting. But the Borg hung around instead, going from a top level terror to bumbling cyberzombies.

Last edited by Stoo; September 5 2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old September 5 2013, 05:05 PM   #626
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Stoo

Your latest post merely proves Anwar, me, etc correct.
You're annoyed the borg can be bitch-slapped by someone and call it 'villain decay'.

Well, as long as it's not the federation that can do the bitch-slapping - or even winning -, it's not even close to being 'villain decay'.
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Old September 5 2013, 05:30 PM   #627
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

that's not actually responding to anything I said
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Old September 5 2013, 06:08 PM   #628
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's not villain decay if the villain in question wasn't superior to the force they lost to in the first place.

If the Borg lost in normal combat to the Feds repeatedly, then that's villain decay (and it didn't happen). If the Borg lose to super-powerful aliens from another Dimension who were far beyond them because of inherent weaknesses the Borg have (but others do not have) and said aliens lose to others who do not have the Borgs' weaknesses, that's not villain decay.

If the Borg losing to ANYONE is enough to ruin their image, then the Borg were crappy villains/characters to begin with that it takes SO LITTLE to ruin them.

You don't see anyone complaining whenever Dominion soldiers got killed.

Last edited by Anwar; September 5 2013 at 06:20 PM.
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Old September 5 2013, 06:34 PM   #629
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Scorpion didn't single handedly ruin their image, you're fighting a strawman there. The borg suffered a steady degredation in how threatening they felt, which is the most basic definion of villain decay.

re: the Dominion, I can't speak for soldiers but as an example I thought the Dominion Attack ships suffered pretty badly. They went from three outfighting a much larger Galaxy class, to being cannon fodder.
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Old September 5 2013, 06:36 PM   #630
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

They didn't outfight the Odyssey, they destroyed in in a Kamikaze attack. Those tend to be pretty effective when you're a flying antimatter bomb.

"Scorpion" is where everyone keeps saying the Borg Decay started, because the mere THOUGHT of there being ONE Species out there that could fight the Borg was utter heresy to them because for some bizarre reason they saw the Borg as some ultimate enemy.

They're not, they never were. They're just cyborgs who are tougher than the Feds.
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