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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old September 3 2013, 10:25 PM   #601
MacLeod
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

^Isn't that the problem? The Borg are supposed to be more advanced than the Federation. As such wouldn't we norm ally expect the more advanced party to win most of the time?

I'm sure the Q with a snap of their fingers could destroy a Borg cube but the Q are more advanced than the Borg.
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Old September 3 2013, 11:05 PM   #602
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Borg are not some unstoppable super-enemy, they are just Tough Cyborgs who are more advanced than the Federation. We've encountered several aliens throughout all of Trek that were more powerful than the Borg, so there's NO reason to treat them like something special.
Out of curiosity, what are they (leaving aside those species who have evolved beyond corporeal existence, like the Metrons, the Q, etc., species that wouldn't engage in armed combat)?
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Old September 3 2013, 11:27 PM   #603
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Hugh is what weakened the Borg for me, though it really begins when the writers decided the Borg needed a spokesperson (is that a spox now in texting English; I always mentally rhyme it with Spocks).

When we first meet the Borg, all we know about them is they're dangerous and harvest technology. They appear to simply be an individual species that implants themselves. They don't really start going after other people until BoBW.

I liked the Borg a lot better before they selected a pitch man.
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Old September 3 2013, 11:49 PM   #604
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Personally, First Contact weakened the Borg. Introducing a queen completely takes away their uniqueness and the horror. Before they were an unstoppable force. But with a queen, you knock her out, and you defeat the Borg. Plus, if there was a queen all along, then how did the cube in BOBW fall for the sleep command? It wouldn't work.

All Voyager did was run them into the ground. The damage was already done.
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Old September 4 2013, 04:25 AM   #605
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

^ I introduced my non-Trek friends to Star Trek a few months ago. We watched the Borg episodes in a marathon and FC. A number of them (5 out of 6) concurred that the addition of the Borg Queen was stupid and weakend the concept of the Borg. This is from NON-FANS. When I told them it only gets worse in VOY where the Queen shows up repeatedly and with a weaker presence each time they groaned.

The Queen can be airlocked from the series forever for all I care. I wouldn't be surprised if the collective staged a coup and usurped her for being a ineffective and incompetent leader. Episodes like Q Who, TBOBW, Scorpion, and Regeneration all perform wonderfully without the Queen. She is not an essential staple of the Borg mythos.

With regards to FC however, I think the film still works well with her inclusion. The opening fight scene shows a massive cube shooting down starships left and right. When the Enterprise shows up and before Picard gives the order to fire, you can see a few more ships burst in to flames before the ships launch a volley of torpedo and phaser fire. The Borg Queen has very little presence in FC. It's the drones we see doing all the work and fighting in the film. The Queen is just there to give Data someone to talk to in the cutaways from the flight of the Phoneix and enemy intruder stories going on.



Also this was posted by TrekCore a few months ago. In an interview Brannon Braga talks about the Borg.

"TrekCore: You've addressed one of the things have "against you", time travel. The other one is the Borg. A lot of fans say that "Braga de-fanged the Borg" in Voyager by making them less of a threat. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think there's anything behind that, or were they the same as they were in The Next Generation?

Brannon Braga: I think that, for the most part, the Borg were a very successful villain on Voyager. I don't think they were... They were "de-fanged" only in so much as they kept getting their asses kicked! Once the Borg lose enough times... which is why in this comic book that I'm going, I have them win. At least, from the beginning, they finally achieve their goals.

That's the danger when you keep bringing them back. I think we brought them back, maybe, twice too many. There were a couple Borg episodes I don't think were quite as successful. I don't remember the finale well enough... I think I have a story credit on it, so you'd think I'd remember it. I don't know that the Borg were super impactful there.

I think Seven of Nine should have bit the dust. I think there had to be a real sacrifice for this crew getting home; a real blood sacrifice. Seven of Nine was, for me, designed to be a character that was gonna die tragically. I planned that."


Full interview here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/03/exc...rview-part-ii/
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Old September 4 2013, 01:31 PM   #606
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
darth_ender wrote: View Post
And Anwar, that's part of my problem. I don't really want anyone to match them, and if we do see such a match, it deflates the view that they are so unstoppable, especially if the way to defeat their opponent actually comes from Voyager personnel, IMHO.
Why can't there be any matches for the Borg? Would you complain if we ever saw Q destroy a Borg Cube?

The Borg are not some unstoppable super-enemy, they are just Tough Cyborgs who are more advanced than the Federation. We've encountered several aliens throughout all of Trek that were more powerful than the Borg, so there's NO reason to treat them like something special.
I think people WANT them to be an unstoppable super enemy. I think they are close, but only because of their numbers.

but in storytelling, what is the purpose of an enemy? to be defeated.
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Old September 4 2013, 01:34 PM   #607
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ I introduced my non-Trek friends to Star Trek a few months ago. We watched the Borg episodes in a marathon and FC. A number of them (5 out of 6) concurred that the addition of the Borg Queen was stupid and weakend the concept of the Borg. This is from NON-FANS. When I told them it only gets worse in VOY where the Queen shows up repeatedly and with a weaker presence each time they groaned.

The Queen can be airlocked from the series forever for all I care. I wouldn't be surprised if the collective staged a coup and usurped her for being a ineffective and incompetent leader. Episodes like Q Who, TBOBW, Scorpion, and Regeneration all perform wonderfully without the Queen. She is not an essential staple of the Borg mythos.

With regards to FC however, I think the film still works well with her inclusion. The opening fight scene shows a massive cube shooting down starships left and right. When the Enterprise shows up and before Picard gives the order to fire, you can see a few more ships burst in to flames before the ships launch a volley of torpedo and phaser fire. The Borg Queen has very little presence in FC. It's the drones we see doing all the work and fighting in the film. The Queen is just there to give Data someone to talk to in the cutaways from the flight of the Phoneix and enemy intruder stories going on.



Also this was posted by TrekCore a few months ago. In an interview Brannon Braga talks about the Borg.

"TrekCore: You've addressed one of the things have "against you", time travel. The other one is the Borg. A lot of fans say that "Braga de-fanged the Borg" in Voyager by making them less of a threat. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think there's anything behind that, or were they the same as they were in The Next Generation?

Brannon Braga: I think that, for the most part, the Borg were a very successful villain on Voyager. I don't think they were... They were "de-fanged" only in so much as they kept getting their asses kicked! Once the Borg lose enough times... which is why in this comic book that I'm going, I have them win. At least, from the beginning, they finally achieve their goals.

That's the danger when you keep bringing them back. I think we brought them back, maybe, twice too many. There were a couple Borg episodes I don't think were quite as successful. I don't remember the finale well enough... I think I have a story credit on it, so you'd think I'd remember it. I don't know that the Borg were super impactful there.

I think Seven of Nine should have bit the dust. I think there had to be a real sacrifice for this crew getting home; a real blood sacrifice. Seven of Nine was, for me, designed to be a character that was gonna die tragically. I planned that."

Full interview here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/03/exc...rview-part-ii/
again, it's one of those times where people say oh they got destroyed a lot, but when you ask for specific times tey can't give you any. People like to say the borg got their asses kicked on voyager a lot, but nobody can ever name more than one or two times where voyager was up against a small or weakened vessel
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Old September 4 2013, 01:35 PM   #608
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Personally, I think the borg were much scarier on Voyager than they ever were on TNG. The first meeting with them was anything but scary.
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Old September 4 2013, 05:44 PM   #609
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Borg ALWAYS had representatives, in nearly all their stories.

Q Who? Had Q and Guinan serve as their "reps". Explaining the Borg to the Feds.

BOBW had Locutus.

I, Borg and Descent had Hugh and Lore.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Isn't that the problem? The Borg are supposed to be more advanced than the Federation. As such wouldn't we norm ally expect the more advanced party to win most of the time?

I'm sure the Q with a snap of their fingers could destroy a Borg cube but the Q are more advanced than the Borg.
The Dominion were more advanced than the Feds too. No one complained when they turned out to be more equal when it came to fighting.

If the 8472 were introduced in TNG, then no one would complain that a species existed that could fight the Borg. Being introduced in VOY is what had people disliking them.

Out of curiosity, what are they (leaving aside those species who have evolved beyond corporeal existence, like the Metrons, the Q, etc., species that wouldn't engage in armed combat)
In TOS they had things like the Doomsday Machine, or V'Ger, or the Whale Probe. All of those things were more powerful than the Borg.

In TNG they had things like Nagilum, or the leftover tech from the T'Kon Empire, stuff like that. All more powerful than the Borg.

What was strange was that they were so afraid of the Borg to begin with, when they already knew there were worse things out there.
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Old September 4 2013, 06:04 PM   #610
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I think with the borg it's the assimilation that makes them "worse".

the Jemhadar had numbers and powerful ships and didn't care if they died themselves. They were a poweful enemy as well, but the worse they would do to you is kill you.

Borg assimilate and turn you into the enemy.
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Old September 4 2013, 06:57 PM   #611
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Q Who? Had Q and Guinan serve as their "reps". Explaining the Borg to the Feds.

Out of curiosity, what are they (leaving aside those species who have evolved beyond corporeal existence, like the Metrons, the Q, etc., species that wouldn't engage in armed combat)
In TOS they had things like the Doomsday Machine, or V'Ger, or the Whale Probe. All of those things were more powerful than the Borg.

In TNG they had things like Nagilum, or the leftover tech from the T'Kon Empire, stuff like that. All more powerful than the Borg.

What was strange was that they were so afraid of the Borg to begin with, when they already knew there were worse things out there.
Forgive me, but that's not an impressive list. We know nothing of the species that made the Doomsday Machine or the Whale Probe, and having the Doomsday Machine would not guarantee that the Borg would not assimilate the species. Moreover, we really don't have a basis for comparing how they would perform in armed combat with the Borg: the Whale Probe was no weapon, and the Doomsday Machine was able to be defeated by 23rd Century Federation technology and strategy. V'Ger? Given that it was, in part, constructed by humans, a species assimilated in an alternative timeline, it's ability are difficult to compare. At the end, none of these are the species themselves, just bits of technology. Same thing with the T'Kon: it's not clear how they could defend themselves, and their ability to resist the Borg would be entirely a matter of speculation.



Nagilum, like Q and the Metrons, really aren't a good measure either. The Borg aren't likely to be interested in them, being that they have neither physicality nor technology. I have no doubt that they could make the Borg disappear, but they aren't likely to engage the Borg. Simply put, they are unlikely to be adversaries to or a threat to the Borg, and the Borg would not try to assimilate them. We even know that Q would not judge the Borg in the way he would humanity. Those races are of no concern to the Borg. Moreover, the same could be said of the Federation's relationship with the same species. Picard et al could reasonably believe that an intellectual appeal would change their minds. The Borg offered no such dialogue, just a commitment to assimilate them. There was no room for negotiation.

Q and Guinan are "representatives" to the Borg? That's strong language.
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Old September 4 2013, 07:23 PM   #612
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

in regards to Q and the borg....
Q to his son....
Q: If the Continuum's told you once, they've told you a thousand times. Don't provoke the Borg!
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Old September 4 2013, 07:27 PM   #613
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Yes, well that never stopped Q from playing around with the Borg.

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Old September 4 2013, 07:45 PM   #614
MacLeod
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Borg ALWAYS had representatives, in nearly all their stories.

Q Who? Had Q and Guinan serve as their "reps". Explaining the Borg to the Feds.

BOBW had Locutus.

I, Borg and Descent had Hugh and Lore.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Isn't that the problem? The Borg are supposed to be more advanced than the Federation. As such wouldn't we norm ally expect the more advanced party to win most of the time?

I'm sure the Q with a snap of their fingers could destroy a Borg cube but the Q are more advanced than the Borg.
The Dominion were more advanced than the Feds too. No one complained when they turned out to be more equal when it came to fighting.

If the 8472 were introduced in TNG, then no one would complain that a species existed that could fight the Borg. Being introduced in VOY is what had people disliking them.

Out of curiosity, what are they (leaving aside those species who have evolved beyond corporeal existence, like the Metrons, the Q, etc., species that wouldn't engage in armed combat)
In TOS they had things like the Doomsday Machine, or V'Ger, or the Whale Probe. All of those things were more powerful than the Borg.

In TNG they had things like Nagilum, or the leftover tech from the T'Kon Empire, stuff like that. All more powerful than the Borg.

What was strange was that they were so afraid of the Borg to begin with, when they already knew there were worse things out there.

However in the case of the Dominion it took the combined might of the UFP, KE, RSE and the CU to finally overcome them. And even then the thing that end the war was Odo persuading the female changeling to surrender and trust the solids.

Isn't also about how much one species is above the other. For example we could say the UFP is a 5 and the Dominion a 6 but put the Borg at an 8.
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Old September 4 2013, 07:53 PM   #615
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

MacLeod wrote: View Post


However in the case of the Dominion it took the combined might of the UFP, KE, RSE and the CU to finally overcome them. And even then the thing that end the war was Odo persuading the female changeling to surrender and trust the solids.
Even then, the majority of the Dominion's military and resources weren't even brought into play during that war, being stuck in the Gamma Quadrant.

Really the only technological advantages the Dominion had were the ability to penetrate Federation shields, which took the Federation a couple years or so to counter, which I really have no problem with.

That long range transporter, which seemed rather limited in it's use, being they only transported one person at any given time. Otherwise they could just beam thousands of Jem'Hadar onto a planet from the next sector.

And of course their cloning technology. The ability to mass breed Jem'Hadar and Vorta makes a war of attrition against the Dominion all but impossible to win.

Really, it took a kamikazee run to take out the Odessey, which was really more a statement of the Jem'Hadar's resolve to destroy the enemy. Even if it's four years before they do that trick again.

But even the Dominion wasn't immune from the water down effect being Odo took out an attack ship in a runabout in Faith, Treachery and the Great River.

The water down effect unavoidably happens with many villains... it definitely did with Voyager and the Borg.
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