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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old February 15 2012, 03:48 AM   #466
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
And in Russian Roulette, not everyone who plays dies, still doesn't make playing a good idea.

There is a possibility that your body parts will be replaced, so Janeway and friends being assimilated on purpose still seems stupid.
But they didn't, they got out of it as easily as Picard (body-wise).

And that's pretty silly too.
It still happened, to much less of a fuss than the much more reasonable idea of them making a temporary vaccine.

Hugh's scout ship is the one that crashed on the planet, I'm pretty sure Hugh was retrieved by a Borg Cube.
I'm pretty sure the ship that picked him up was described as being the same type as the one that crashed.

Perhaps, but frankly it does make Assimilation seem less scary if they can just whip up a vaccine for it. The event that scared Picard's life is treated as trivial in this ep.
What scarred him was the mental trauma of what the Borg used him for. Janeway and co didn't go through that because the Borg didn't use them for the same things they used Picard for (assimilation of mankind).


Why don't you go over the TNG board and ask them if they think Descent was a good episode.
I have, it's not that badly received.

Sfdebris mentioned that if the Queen had simply disconnected drones from the Collective and then had them beg for their lives before killing them, that have a bigger impact than blowing up a ship far away and be more efficient.
That would have been validating their existence and treating them as individuals. What she did instead was distant and inhumane while still treating them as "irregularities" within the Collective to be purged and not individuals.
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Old February 15 2012, 03:58 AM   #467
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saito S wrote: View Post
Let me put it another way. You have claimed, repeatedly, that people actually wanted the ship to be in "Year of Hell" shape, all the time, and that the majority of the cast should be cold-blooded killers, and or post-breakdown, PTSD-suffering messes, and that Janeway should have been going around demanding supplies from alien races and blowing up their planets if refused. You claimed that VOY detractors actually wanted those specific things on multiple occasions.
Yes.

It doesn't. Never did.
It does, not as powerful anymore because folks are waking up that the NuBSG approach isn't any good either.

There's no definitive proof of that, sorry.
Even DITL says that the TNG Cube was a "massive vessel" whereas the TC gets definitive measurements.

That doesn't make any sense. We are talking about ships. There's no such thing as a "strategic ship."
Example: The huge mothership/carrier that has the fuel the smaller attack vessels need to go back for when they use theirs up during the course of battle.

The smaller attack ships that need the refueling and support are Tactical Vessels, the Mothership/Carrier is the Strategic vessel they need to survive more than one battle.

So the ships that move in after the fighting is over,
Maybe not all the fighting, just the opening stages of the battles.

tasked with assimilating lots of helpless civilians and dismantling/transporting machines and structures, need more strength and durability than the ships that move in initially, fighting enemy starships, breaking down their defenses, and taking the brunt of whatever resistance the species might offer.
Yes, they need to be tougher to scour out all the people, resisting or hiding, while taking further assaults from remaining forces the Tactical ships couldn't handle or missed, at the same time assimilating the people they find and oversee conversion of the entire planet into a Borg Technosphere if need be.

Sounds a bit more daunting that just shooting at stuff and getting blown up.

As to the rest: you responded to my assertion that it was all hogwash by yammering about the Borg one-shot killing this ship or that. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but my statement about hogwash stands.
I'm pointing out that if the ENT-D and ENT-E (and the Defiant) can withstand attacks that blow up other Fed ships in one shot, why can't VOY?
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Old February 15 2012, 04:20 AM   #468
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Saito S wrote: View Post
Let me put it another way. You have claimed, repeatedly, that people actually wanted the ship to be in "Year of Hell" shape, all the time, and that the majority of the cast should be cold-blooded killers, and or post-breakdown, PTSD-suffering messes, and that Janeway should have been going around demanding supplies from alien races and blowing up their planets if refused. You claimed that VOY detractors actually wanted those specific things on multiple occasions.
Yes.
Ah, there it is, the un-incredulous, delivered with a completely-straight-face, "Yes", in response to me basically asking if you actually believe something that is absolutely, 100%, batshit insane. Thank you for clearing that up.
Even DITL says that the TNG Cube was a "massive vessel" whereas the TC gets definitive measurements.
http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymai...ip.php?brgcube
http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymai...rgtacticalcube

Sorry, try again.

I'll note that I don't consider DITL truly definitive; it's a fan site, and the creator acknowledges what parts of his figures are pure speculation. But aside from you being wrong about what DITL says, this does back up my overall point that there IS nothing definitive. Like so much else in Trek, it's ambiguous. A fan site can come to its own conclusion, but shouldn't be taken as infallibly correct.

I'm not touching the stuff about which cube needs to be tougher in combat. I've more than proven my point already, and you are grasping at straws with suggestions that putting down the last dregs of resistance on a planet's surface would somehow require bigger guns than fighting off their starships and primary means of defense, and downplaying starship combat as "just shooting at stuff and getting blown up."
I'm pointing out that if the ENT-D and ENT-E (and the Defiant) can withstand attacks that blow up other Fed ships in one shot, why can't VOY?
I have answered this question, or one very similar to it, a dozen times in a dozen different threads. The question, of course, isn't actually about the ships that can, or cannot, withstand whatever amount of damage, but is about the supposed "double standard" and "Hatedome" toward VOY. They don't exist, and never did.
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Old February 15 2012, 04:24 AM   #469
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

But we DO see those ships take damage or engage in battles wherein other Fed ships get one-shot killed, but it never even remotely happens to the "Main character" ships in question.
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Old February 15 2012, 05:05 AM   #470
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I wonder how the Borg would handle a Tholian Web?

And after they assimilated the tech, how often they would use it?
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Old February 15 2012, 10:19 AM   #471
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

jpch wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post


are you kidding me these people have the most subjective reviews,all they do is hate on Voy check their forums. ugh.
jpch wrote: View Post
Sandoval wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
...unlike the Galaxy who was so fat and slow and barely moved in a battle.
Indeed.

Almost as if the CGI Voyager special-effects from the later seasons were a decade more advanced than the huge physical models used to film the Enterprise-D isn't it?

Although the CGI Galaxies in DS9 moved about quite a bit now I think about it.

Damn those people you mention and their idiotic comments...
you are a very annoying and idiotic person. check season 1 of Voyager where they used models just like TNG in episodes like ''ex post facto'' etc... you will understand how fast an intrepid moves.
jpch wrote: View Post
Hell, maybe it's just because VOY played an important role in this story that riles people up. If it had been Hugh and his group of Rebel Borg who cooked up the scheme and VOY offered to help, the audience wouldn't have been so pissed.

Exactly all those TNG fan boys cant even accept something positive to come out of Voyager.[/QUOTE]

jpch wrote: View Post
You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
and when it took on the tactical cube they had Seven of nine expertise as well anti-Borg modifications made by a 29th century drone...also during that battle we saw Voyager making circles and maneuvering around the Tactical cube so fast,that is clearly a tactical advantage unlike the Galaxy who was so fat and slow and barely moved in a battle.
Voyager was going to be DESTROYED by a sphere in "Drone" despite the help from a 29th century drone. Voyager taking on a tactical cube in "Unimatrix Zero" was a load of bullsh*t, nothing can change my mind on that. That whole episode was awful and the first truly terrible Borg episode in my opinion (although I thought "Collective" wasn't very good), you can refer to sfdebris's recent review on how inept it was.

Voyager was going at full impulse around the cube firing all weapons and barely damaging it...i don't see you people mind that a Galaxy class blew up a cube in BOBW LOL and sfdebris are bullshit all the reviews are made by VoY Hater not objective at all.
Two things. One don't be calling other posters idiots. It's flaming and a violation of our rules. Two use the multi quote feature, as I have done here, when responding to multiple posters so as not to spam up the thread. Thanks.
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Old February 15 2012, 11:41 AM   #472
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I wonder how the Borg would handle a Tholian Web?

And after they assimilated the tech, how often they would use it?
Maybe a can of Raid, or other effective bug spray would be serviceable? As for use of the webbing tech, crochet or macrame? The queen seems like the homey, keep one's self busy sort of lady.
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Old February 15 2012, 12:34 PM   #473
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

To be fair, realistic even, I get the feeling that a post modern man like Picard, I mean Locutus, would have been far more into knitting than the Queen.

She's more of a Samantha than a Charlotte.

"Mysterious Island"

That woman needs to kill her agent.
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Old February 15 2012, 12:47 PM   #474
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The webbing might have uses for other entertainment purposes, too. Good for tying up plot holes and loose ends as well. I'm sure she wouldn't keep anything that she didn't have at least four different purposes for. She is reluctant to think in just three dimensions.
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Old February 15 2012, 01:08 PM   #475
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Neelix would try to make a stew from it.

Small miracles.
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Old February 15 2012, 01:13 PM   #476
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Harry would probably get killed by it. Then be resurrected by Neelix's cheesy web leola root stew. More miracles. I wonder if that's why he never got promoted. Each time he came back he had to start his rating from zero time served.
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Old February 15 2012, 03:29 PM   #477
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Neelix would try to make a stew from it.

Small miracles.
LOL haha
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Old February 16 2012, 07:18 AM   #478
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

jpch wrote: View Post
sfdebris are bullshit all the reviews are made by VoY Hater not objective at all.
QFT

A review has no merit if it's presented from a bias point of view because it's lost it's objectivity. sfbedris often bases how good an episode is simply based on how well he personally likes the character regardless of subject content, acting or cinematography. A review isn't honest if it's based on favoritism. Complaining is not a review, it's simply using a format to bitch.
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Old February 16 2012, 07:24 AM   #479
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
sfdebris are bullshit all the reviews are made by VoY Hater not objective at all.
QFT

A review has no merit if it's presented from a bias point of view because it's lost it's objectivity. Complaining is not a review, it's simply using a format to bitch.
Could you give us an example of a negative TV show or movie review that is based on objectivity and not presented from a biased point of view?
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Old February 16 2012, 07:35 AM   #480
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
sfdebris are bullshit all the reviews are made by VoY Hater not objective at all.
QFT

A review has no merit if it's presented from a bias point of view because it's lost it's objectivity. Complaining is not a review, it's simply using a format to bitch.
Could you give us an example of a negative TV show or movie review that is based on objectivity and not presented from a biased point of view?
There are plenty of critics and press that have been openly bias about the personal attitudes of such actors like Russell Crowe and Sean Penn, yet that bias isn't shown nor does it affect the reviews of their films or movie projects. They are base upon their performance or film subject content. Richard Gere was black listed by the press and public for comments he made after 9/11, yet his political point of view has no effect on any review of his films he did after. Whoopi Goldberg during the 80's and early 90's was adored by the press and public, yet he TV show "Whoopi" was trashed by the critics.
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