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Old December 13 2011, 04:45 PM   #346
sonak
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
And like I said, in BOBW the Ent-D attacks the Cube (when they're rescuing Locutus) and manages to survive relatively unscathed whereas earlier we saw that same Cube destroying Starfleet ships in SINGLE SHOTS.

Yes, that Cube ended up leaving after they got Locutus but the Ent-D still lasted ridiculously longer against it compared to the 40 other Starships that got trashed.

yeah, but they showed them having to create innovative strategies for that, separating the ship, etc. And when it comes down to it, story necessity and the fact that they only had the Ent-D have a full on encounter with a Borg Cube by itself twice, and one time they got their butts handed to them ("Q Who") makes this acceptable.

Voyager, which was one ship with no backup, in a region surrounded by Borg, survived multiple encounters with the Borg while taking little damage. They became just another random opponent, like the Kazon.
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Old December 13 2011, 08:27 PM   #347
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

They didn't survive multiple encounters by winning or anything. It was almost always because a superior force to the Borg intervened and saved them.

1) Scorpion: the 8472; Now I KNOW that folks hate the idea of there being even a SINGLE alien species out there stronger than the Borg but they have to get over themselves. Q said that the Borg were just one species that was strong, which clearly meant there were other aliens just as if not MORE powerful out there so this story made sense.

2) Unity: The Cube was already damaged and messed up, and it was the benevolent Borg Cooperative that destroyed it.

3) One: It was the super-advanced drone that destroyed the Borg ship.

4) Unimatrix Zero: Again, benevolent Borg saved them.

5) Dark Frontier: It was a PROBE ship that wasn't stronger than Voyager to begin with.

6) Endgame: Super-advanced weapons from the future. Doesn't count as VOY alone.

So what if the ship didn't take a lot of damage? The ENT-D didn't look all that damaged after BOBW, and there were plenty of alien repair stations and commerce worlds they could go to for help. They just didn't bother showing it because they couldn't think of any good stories that had the ship out of the picture for entire episodes and they didn't have the money to make brand new space station sets and models.
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Old December 14 2011, 12:36 AM   #348
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

^^^All this is completely correct. And the defeat of the Borg at the end of Child's Play was with the help of the alien disease carried by Icheb.

And the depiction of Borg as nonresponsive to people wandering about until they are perceived as a threat doesn't weaken the Borg, it just paints them as nonaggressive. Not the same thing.

Still, there's no way to rationalize Survival Instinct where the Borg are defeated by a storm at the beginning and where drones manage to simply escape! But then, there's no reason to rationalize that since no one is thinking of Survival Instinct when they prattle about Voyager weakening the Borg. I guess that means they're really upset about something else.
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Old December 14 2011, 02:06 AM   #349
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They didn't survive multiple encounters by winning or anything. It was almost always because a superior force to the Borg intervened and saved them.

1) Scorpion: the 8472; Now I KNOW that folks hate the idea of there being even a SINGLE alien species out there stronger than the Borg but they have to get over themselves. Q said that the Borg were just one species that was strong, which clearly meant there were other aliens just as if not MORE powerful out there so this story made sense.

2) Unity: The Cube was already damaged and messed up, and it was the benevolent Borg Cooperative that destroyed it.

3) One: It was the super-advanced drone that destroyed the Borg ship.

4) Unimatrix Zero: Again, benevolent Borg saved them.

5) Dark Frontier: It was a PROBE ship that wasn't stronger than Voyager to begin with.

6) Endgame: Super-advanced weapons from the future. Doesn't count as VOY alone.

So what if the ship didn't take a lot of damage? The ENT-D didn't look all that damaged after BOBW, and there were plenty of alien repair stations and commerce worlds they could go to for help. They just didn't bother showing it because they couldn't think of any good stories that had the ship out of the picture for entire episodes and they didn't have the money to make brand new space station sets and models.
you're right on the technical merits, but from a dramatic perspective, it doesn't matter HOW they keep escaping or defeating the Borg. Routinely running into them and emerging unscathed just weakens them as a threat.

The Borg, as an intimidating concept, were just not going to make it through the repeated uses that Voyager put them through.

You'll notice that through an entire six-year TNG run(starting from second season) plus a movie series, the Borg Collective in force was used a total of three times. The Borg remained scary on TNG because they were used sparingly.
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Old December 14 2011, 02:44 AM   #350
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

sonak wrote: View Post
The Borg, as an intimidating concept, were just not going to make it through the repeated uses that Voyager put them through.
If a concept is so dead-end that it can't handle more than 2 or so uses, then they're a bad concept that should've had more thought put into them.

I mean heck, the Dominion were introduced destroying a Galaxy Class ship easily but by later on we saw Galaxy ships easily destroying the very same Dominion ships. No one complained.

TNG itself was incapable of keeping them as "intimidating" as you say. All the Borg stories after BOBW had them watered down.

If folks were alright with the Borg being watered down within TNG, and how DS9 watered down the Dominion, then complaining about VOY is just hypocritical.
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Old December 14 2011, 02:49 AM   #351
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

So?

DS9 did one Borg story, well, it was more of a cameo, but that shit was outstanding.

They killed Ben's wife.

If he didn't have a son to look after, Sisko would have gone Charles Bronson right up their arses.
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Old December 14 2011, 03:11 AM   #352
sonak
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
The Borg, as an intimidating concept, were just not going to make it through the repeated uses that Voyager put them through.
If a concept is so dead-end that it can't handle more than 2 or so uses, then they're a bad concept that should've had more thought put into them.

I mean heck, the Dominion were introduced destroying a Galaxy Class ship easily but by later on we saw Galaxy ships easily destroying the very same Dominion ships. No one complained.

TNG itself was incapable of keeping them as "intimidating" as you say. All the Borg stories after BOBW had them watered down.

If folks were alright with the Borg being watered down within TNG, and how DS9 watered down the Dominion, then complaining about VOY is just hypocritical.
But I don't think that TNG did water them down. Again, they were only used three times, and here are the results


1."Q Who- Borg kick Enterprise's butt, Enterprise gets bailed out by Q

2. "BOBW"-Borg destroy an entire fleet of ships, come within an eyelash of conquering the Federation

3. "FC"- Borg basically take over the Enterprise from within in a short period of time, only fail in their conquest because of Data



Each time, they're intimidating, tough, and come pretty close to winning

TNG DIDN'T water down the Borg, that's why you don't hear that criticism.
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Old December 14 2011, 03:38 AM   #353
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Here's what few of you seem not to have cottoned onto... The reaosn Voyager continued to survive confrontations with the Borg is because the Borg had simply no interest in destroying Voyager. Voyager was not a threat, and this is way more important: Voyager coun't hide from the Borg.

To move as fast as the Borg do, they have to be able to navigate and scan ahead of themselkves for proximate dangers and obstructions... At the speeds we are talking about, any Cube should be able to lock onto any chunk of matter the size of a breadbox half a galaxy away from where ever they are floating... And that's just a ship, Iagine what their listenign posts and observatories are capable of... IN any adventure the Voyager haswith the borg, it would take them 5 decades at maximumn warp before they're off the Borgs Long range scans.

The Borg could have destroyed Voyager whenever they felt like it.

But then we get back to the point that there was no reason to, and no benefit, and if they had long term plans that involved Voyager, destroying Voyager might be a detriment to the Collective.
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Old December 14 2011, 03:56 AM   #354
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

stj wrote: View Post
^^^All this is completely correct. And the defeat of the Borg at the end of Child's Play was with the help of the alien disease carried by Icheb.

.
I think you mixed up your episodes.
The Borg sphere in "Child's Play" was defeated due to Seven beaming a torpedo on board the shuttle Icheb was on and set to detonate once it entered the sphere. It had nothing to do with Icheb's virus. "Collective" was the ep. in which Icheb's virus damaged the cube.
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Old December 14 2011, 04:09 AM   #355
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
The Borg, as an intimidating concept, were just not going to make it through the repeated uses that Voyager put them through.
If a concept is so dead-end that it can't handle more than 2 or so uses, then they're a bad concept that should've had more thought put into them.

I mean heck, the Dominion were introduced destroying a Galaxy Class ship easily but by later on we saw Galaxy ships easily destroying the very same Dominion ships. No one complained.

TNG itself was incapable of keeping them as "intimidating" as you say. All the Borg stories after BOBW had them watered down.

If folks were alright with the Borg being watered down within TNG, and how DS9 watered down the Dominion, then complaining about VOY is just hypocritical.
But I don't think that TNG did water them down. Again, they were only used three times, and here are the results


1."Q Who- Borg kick Enterprise's butt, Enterprise gets bailed out by Q

2. "BOBW"-Borg destroy an entire fleet of ships, come within an eyelash of conquering the Federation

3. "FC"- Borg basically take over the Enterprise from within in a short period of time, only fail in their conquest because of Data



Each time, they're intimidating, tough, and come pretty close to winning

TNG DIDN'T water down the Borg, that's why you don't hear that criticism.
In "BOBW" the Admiral repeatedly says the Borg are going to get though their defences because they simply weren't ready for them yet. They hadn't finished building a new fleet to defend Earth. They had already told us, the Borg weren't going to beat us because they were more powerful. Starfleet was simply to slow and lax building a new fleet of ships.

DS9 "The Search" is before "FC", in "The Search" Sisko says Starfleet put building a fleet of Defiants on the back burner due do to the Borg not attacking again. As we saw after "FC" and during the Dominion war, Starfleet now is building more and more vessels that can battle the Borg and Dominion. Again, Starfleet was to slow and lax in prepping to defending themselves.

Plus depending on who you talk to, I hear allot of fans saying TNG watered down the Borg with "Decent". IMO, the Borg were watered down during "I.Borg" by making Hugh a passive Borg. Hugh had the ability to assimilate the Enterprise and it's crew and never once took advantage of the tactical advantage he was given. I thought the Borg were ruthless and relentless?
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Old December 14 2011, 05:06 AM   #356
sonak
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Here's what few of you seem not to have cottoned onto... The reaosn Voyager continued to survive confrontations with the Borg is because the Borg had simply no interest in destroying Voyager. Voyager was not a threat, and this is way more important: Voyager coun't hide from the Borg.

To move as fast as the Borg do, they have to be able to navigate and scan ahead of themselkves for proximate dangers and obstructions... At the speeds we are talking about, any Cube should be able to lock onto any chunk of matter the size of a breadbox half a galaxy away from where ever they are floating... And that's just a ship, Iagine what their listenign posts and observatories are capable of... IN any adventure the Voyager haswith the borg, it would take them 5 decades at maximumn warp before they're off the Borgs Long range scans.

The Borg could have destroyed Voyager whenever they felt like it.

But then we get back to the point that there was no reason to, and no benefit, and if they had long term plans that involved Voyager, destroying Voyager might be a detriment to the Collective.

I don't buy this. To the Borg point of view, Voyager should have screwed with their plans enough by "Dark Frontier," and certainly by "unimatrix zero," to be considered enough of a threat to just send a few cubes to take them out. The Borg look either lazy, incompetent, or stupid for not doing so.
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Old December 14 2011, 08:50 AM   #357
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

by that same token, the Borg should have assimilated the Federation long ago in numbers... not just sending 1 cube.

As for Voyager messing with Borg plans... meh... those were pitiful attempts at best that the Collective could have easily discarded.
It wouldn't be until Unimatrix Zero that they seriously started messing up their plans because they affected things on a much larger scale - which resulted in a Borg resistance movement and could have kept the Collective at bay from coming after Voyager.

Then that concept was dropped, and come Endgame where Voyager ends up seriously crippling the Borg in just one shot.
They destroy the Unimatrix 01 along with the Queen, and their entire TW network with all the hubs.
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Old December 14 2011, 09:35 AM   #358
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Remember Steve Harwin?

Dr Evils Henchman who was flattened by a steam roller in the first Austin powers Movie?

The Borg think that Voyager is that Steamroller, and that they are not as stupid as Steven. That taking two steps to the left will make it impossible for Voyager to come within a thousand light years of anything they determine as vulnerable or delicate.

Lets just repeat the mantra... "The Borg assimilate societies, not individuals."

The Enterprise in Q Who was foreign, exotic and a billion questions.

10, to nearly 14 years later, Voyager is bogstandard. Yawn.

This is why marriages fail.

New is always better.
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Old December 14 2011, 12:04 PM   #359
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Actually, the Borg started to fail since their usage in TNG as well.
It started with I Borg, Descent, then went on to FC with the introduction of the queen.
Voyager actually kept in line with 'no queen' in Scorpion... but then used her in Dark Frontier.

And most of their 'incidents' with the Collective resulted in Voyager barely getting out alive or always getting help from a force that could stand up to the Borg.

TNG was no different actually.
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Old December 14 2011, 08:41 PM   #360
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Voyager was left alone after Scorpion because of the deal with the Borg by Capt. Janeway. Non the less, in the years following it is Capt. Janeway's brainiac thing to do to severely weaken the Borg. Somethimes the crew wanted out but idiosyncratic Janeway kept plugging.
Since TNG the Borg are irrepressable. This means no matter what you throw at them even more will bounce back.
The Borg are also tacticle. It is like a small robot who views all its many wonderful parts and minions and keeps an eye out for the enemy. This is why why the Borg aren't Galactic wide but stay in the Delta Quadrant. The basis of the Borgs intelligence isn't flesh.
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