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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old August 8 2011, 06:20 AM   #331
Gary7
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
I don't think it's fair to put the blame solely on one posters shoulders.
It takes two to tango.
It would have been the debate/conversation you were looking for if all parties would just agree to disagree and then push the topic forward.
Well, one person is seeing gaping holes, changed arguments where first assertions are later contradicted and such, so he's trying to bring attention to that. But the other person isn't seeing it... or just simply choosing to ignore it. And thus, the debate continues. I'm amazed it has gone on this long, actually. But judging from the last post, it may finally be over. He realizes it is pointless to continue.


I find it absurd to make any claim that the Voyager crew are spineless cowards always running for home. We've seen plenty of cases where they put up one hell of a fight, or seek to help another species out rather than "run away". Whoops... I'm participating again. "Argument is futile."
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Old August 8 2011, 01:14 PM   #332
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's easy:

VOY fights off any of their own original enemies (Kazon, Vidiians, Krenim, Hirogen) or they get help to fight them off and the audience is "Alright, I still hate all of VOY's original creations but they fought them off and its believable."

VOY encounters the Borg and it's always "They survived an encounter with the Borg, which shouldn't have happened and they all should've died since the Borg are faster than them and their weapons are supposed to be completely ineffective. They've emasculated the Borg by not having them kill everyone."

And this is regardless of how it's done, whether they use trickery or get help or anything.
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Old December 12 2011, 04:08 AM   #333
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.
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Old December 12 2011, 05:51 AM   #334
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Someone's headed for a banning real quick.
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Old December 12 2011, 06:05 AM   #335
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

jpch wrote: View Post
only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.
Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.
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Old December 12 2011, 02:40 PM   #336
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Personally I believe the TNG movie "First Contact" weakened the borg but that's me.
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Old December 12 2011, 03:25 PM   #337
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

They Spent a lot of money on those Borg Costumes and still lost the academy award for SFX to "Meet the Clumps".

But, DS9 got the new Federation Uniforms and Voyager got the Borg costumes.

Did that seem like a fair divvy?

Behr could have just have easily asked for the Borg Costumes

Maybe there was a coin toss or some sort of contest?

But what if First Contact had been about Romulans instead?

What was Braga and His flunkies in the Voyager writers Room going to do with wardrobe and props for a few dozen Romulans?

The mind boggles.

So does my pants.

Seriously, maybe the Federation wasn't aware that the Romulan Star Empire extended half way into the Delta Quadrant?

Seriously.

It's been two thousand years since they left Vulcan, what have they been doing for the last 2 millennia, if not conquering the weak and befriending the strong across the extended galaxy?
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Old December 12 2011, 04:03 PM   #338
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Akiraprise wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.
Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.
We saw a single Galaxy Class last in battle against an Assimilation Cube (which is much stronger) without taking any noticeable damage. Why can't an Intrepid do something similar?
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Old December 12 2011, 04:19 PM   #339
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
It's easy:

VOY fights off any of their own original enemies (Kazon, Vidiians, Krenim, Hirogen) or they get help to fight them off and the audience is "Alright, I still hate all of VOY's original creations but they fought them off and its believable."

VOY encounters the Borg and it's always "They survived an encounter with the Borg, which shouldn't have happened and they all should've died since the Borg are faster than them and their weapons are supposed to be completely ineffective. They've emasculated the Borg by not having them kill everyone."

And this is regardless of how it's done, whether they use trickery or get help or anything.
er, because the Borg are supposed to be stronger than just another enemy. Plus, Voyager's crew has infiltrated Borg headquarters before in just a glorified runabout and emerged unscathed.

the concept of Voyager going up against the Borg just doesn't work believably because the Borg are a powerful collective in their home space and Voyager is one ship. At any time, the Queen could have dispatched a handful of cubes to blow Voyager out of the stars.
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Old December 12 2011, 04:53 PM   #340
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Akiraprise wrote: View Post
jpch wrote: View Post
only idiots would say voyager weakened the Borg.they probably dident even watch the show.voyager was always running away from the Borg or getting its butt kicked wake up retards u just hate voy for no reasons at all.
Um, VOY did weaken the Borg. Intrepid class Federation starship versus Borg tactical cube. Assimilation in 35.7 seconds tops.
Guess I'm an idiot.

Seriously though, don't be calling people idiots or retards. Thanks.
We saw a single Galaxy Class last in battle against an Assimilation Cube (which is much stronger) without taking any noticeable damage. Why can't an Intrepid do something similar?
Um, which time?

In their first encounter, the Borg played possum, and once they actually started to fight, their chief weapons were designed to drain Enterprises batteries so it would be run aground soon enough and the Borg could dissect their technology at leisure.

Or are you talking about Best of Both Worlds where the Borg ignored almost everything distracting and inconsequential so that they could assimilate Earth with a decapitating strike?

The Borg care about civilizations, not individuals.
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Old December 12 2011, 05:31 PM   #341
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Any "invincible" baddie's aura decays every time our heroes survive them. Had the Borg cropped up as much on DS9 or ENT, the end result would have been exactly the same.
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Old December 13 2011, 04:11 AM   #342
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Look, if being "mysterious" is the only thing that makes someone interesting, that just shows how poorly thought out said creation is in the first place.
It's not a bad quality for a monster to have. It is a bad quality for a villain to have.

A monster is a force of nature that derives its oomph from being mysterious and simple, and usually represents some kind of iconic, elemental fear. A villain is just like any other character - except that he's the bad guy.

The more you know about a monster, the less cool and interesting he is. The more you know about a villain, the more cool and interesting he is.

The Borg were originally designed as monsters, not villains. As villains, they're too simplistic. VOY made the mistake of trying to add complexity to move them from monster to villain status. All that happened is that they ruined a good monster and ended up with a lame villain.

Villains are pretty common in literature, movies, TV shows, etc, because being regular sorts of characters, they're much easier to devise. But a good monster is hard to create, which makes it a rare thing and should be handled with care.
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Old December 13 2011, 04:22 AM   #343
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

TNG already did all that first. The only TNG Borg story that had the Borg as true "monsters" was Q Who?, their intro episode. And that story STILL needed Q and Guinan to be the narrators with the Borg almost as a background element than anything else (Q was in total control of the situation the whole time).

If the Borg were meant to be some 1-D monster that could never be developed into anything more, the TNG writers should've saved themselves the trouble and gotten rid of them all to stop the inevitable humanization that occurred. They should've never been anything more than a one-shot that was permanently destroyed at the end of BOBW.
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Old December 13 2011, 11:48 AM   #344
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I think the only mistake done to the Borg by TNG was the introduction of the Queen.

However, Voyager managed to destroy it, along with a unimatrix 01 and all TW hubs in the galaxy.

Therefore, if the Borg survived, it's possible that they could perceive the queen as an error in their calculations and simply remove her from the equation (Humanity was more or less on the losing side of the conflict with the Queen out of the picture).

while I will agree that the destruction of the cube in BoBw resulted in a 'lucky hit', the rest of TNG didn't fare any better.
Same went for Voyager.

As for Voyager going up against the Tactical cube and surviving... case in point, Voyager was newer than a Galaxy class and could have sported some anti-borg systems SF made in the meantime, and let's not forget that it's offensive/defensive systems are likely identical to the Galaxy class -same power in a smaller package.

But if you also recall, this encounter with the Tactical cube happened AFTER the ships shields and weapons were enhanced by 'One' - granted, that Sphere was able to counteract voyager's phaser beam with a feedback pulse, but I would surmise that 7's presence on voyager countered numerous 'tricks' that the Borg could have done to them... along with SF engineers on the ship who had time to analyse the results of the combat and come up with a way to counter them.

Plus, phaser beams delivered to the Tactical cube at the time were short bursts... probably very powerful short bursts at the same time.
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Old December 13 2011, 03:57 PM   #345
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

And like I said, in BOBW the Ent-D attacks the Cube (when they're rescuing Locutus) and manages to survive relatively unscathed whereas earlier we saw that same Cube destroying Starfleet ships in SINGLE SHOTS.

Yes, that Cube ended up leaving after they got Locutus but the Ent-D still lasted ridiculously longer against it compared to the 40 other Starships that got trashed.
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