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Old July 21 2011, 10:18 AM   #16
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saquist wrote:
Rick Berman is to blame.
If I had a penny for every time I heard that...

Rick Berman is to blame for giving us many years of enjoyable Star Trek after Gene Rodenberry died. Yes, it was imperfect - just as Star Trek was imperfect in the years prior to him taking over.

As for the OP and the Borg: "Invincible" enemies, as the Borg were portrayed as up until "Descent" (when Beverly, of all people, assisted by a group of newbie halfwits, effortlessly destroyed a Borg ship), lose their aura of invincibility when they're defeated time and time again. It was inevitable.

They were still cool villains, IMO. And they'll be back one day.
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Old July 21 2011, 10:29 AM   #17
Saquist
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

froot wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
You guys forget Intrepid is Fighting Starship, it's Galaxy equivalent at the least in Firepower. Janeway litterally informs one Borg ship that Voyager can match their firepower and it was no idol threat. Voyager disable their shields in two hits..
That was a tiny scout ship, not a Cube.

Plus I think the Intrepid is itself a scout ship and/or science vessel more than anything.
I never said it was a Cube, just that it was a Borg Ship that in itself is pretty significant that it beat a ship its equivalent size with extreme easy.

Intrepid is a cruiser like most Federation ships.
It has more phasers than a Galaxy Class or Sovereign Class Starship, The best sensors in the fleet (at the time) scanning for a distance of 15 lightyears in just seconds, Likely Galaxy equivalent shields, and some extremely powerful photon torpedoes.

In Basics we see that Firepower on bare hull and it's ridiculous that Voyager took out a ship 1200 meters long with 3 torpedoes and a phaser barrage. Remember this ship's First mission was a combat mission, you don't send scouts on combat mission. Scouts are for recon. This was a crusier assignment just like any Galaxy, Nebula or Excelsior would get.

Many think Voyager is a science vessel or Scout but no scout ship would be that big with a crew that size. Defiant is more like a scout ship if you believe it's 120 meter popular size (which I don't) And No science ship would need a speed 3 times that of the Galaxy to do it's mission. Voyager was nothing less than state-of-the art and a formidable offensive weapon. Among all the ship in Star Fleet Intrepid is second only to the Nemesis Sovereign in phasers and torpedo hardpoints.


KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote:
Rick Berman is to blame.
If I had a penny for every time I heard that...

Rick Berman is to blame for giving us many years of enjoyable Star Trek after Gene Rodenberry died. Yes, it was imperfect - just as Star Trek was imperfect in the years prior to him taking over.

As for the OP and the Borg: "Invincible" enemies, as the Borg were portrayed as up until "Descent" (when Beverly, of all people, assisted by a group of newbie halfwits, effortlessly destroyed a Borg ship), lose their aura of invincibility when they're defeated time and time again. It was inevitable.

They were still cool villains, IMO. And they'll be back one day.
If your enemy is stronger than you, you must find unconventional ways to defeat them. Beverly relied on her skill set. I didn't have a problem. Where the Borg Become senseless idiots is when they send a single cube time after time to destroy an entire sovereignty like the Federation. (First Contact) and time travel back in time when you fail...(First Contact) instead of going back in time first and using the Cube to assimilate Earth (First Contact) and when you do get to Earth of the past you use "firecrackers" instead of of a thermonuclear warhead to destroy the famed test facility of Zephram Cochrane....(First Contact)

What ever invincibility they had after TNG died in movie....

Last edited by Saquist; July 21 2011 at 10:44 AM.
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Old July 21 2011, 10:37 AM   #18
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's possible that the Intrepid Class Starship circa 2370 is about as powerful in a short fight as a Galaxy Class 2363, However by 2370, a Galaxy Class Refit with contemporary upgrades and seven years of walking the line would make the Intrepid look like the oversized shuttlecraft that it is.

Here's why Voyager seems so powerful, when Picard tried to run away in Q Who, he couldn't his ship was not fast enough or powerful enough to escape. They were going to cut the Enterprise up for parts and flush his crew into space.

Janeway's two true advantages are first that the the Borg assimilate civilizations not individuals and second that they had no more curiosity about humanity or the Federation. The Borg had nothing to prove and assimilating Voyager would render no technical or tactical advantage vs. the effort of tucking them into Collective.

Kinda like America and Puerto Rico.
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Old July 21 2011, 10:41 PM   #19
Supernuke
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

When I said Voyager destroyed many ships, I meant in endgame. They destroyed the entire hub and those Borg vessels. When they were invisioned I doubt they were supposed to be an enemy that could be outsmarted by better technology in the future. They were supposed to adapt to that within a few uses.
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Old July 21 2011, 10:59 PM   #20
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Borg were very badly damaged by Fed tech in their first appearance. They needed to drain the Enterprise database for information and slice a chunk of the ship out to analyze it before they could adapt to anything. AND they had to repair the damage to their ship first.

And if the guys they're fighting have weaponry on par with or superior to Borg tech, then it's debatable IF they Borg can adapt at all.

The Borg were never meant to be as overpowered as the fandom made them out to be.

Personally, I'd have introduced the 8472 aliens in TNG. I'd have introduced them in "Q Who?" itself: Q teleports the Enterprise into the middle of a battle between the 8472 and the Borg, with the Borg losing. The Enterprise runs away and one of the Cubes chases them.

It would make it clear that the Borg's adaptive powers works well on the Feds because they're clearly inferior to the Borg. But if the Borg are fighting with someone equal to them, no dice.
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Old July 22 2011, 01:07 AM   #21
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I say that the moment the Borg lost their teeth for me was Dark Frontier. On its own, a very impressive episode. As a part of the overall Trek mythos, it took the menace of the Borg away. A small scoutship manages to walk onto the Borg's front doorstep and fly away unscathed. That should never have happened. The moment the Voyager crew made it to the unicomplex was the moment that the Borg lost their fangs. This is supposed to be the heart of Borg space, the seat of their 'power,' for lack of a better word. And the Voyager crew manage to make a fool of the Collective and walk away.

THAT was when they lost their ability to be a terrifying villain, at least in my book.
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Old July 22 2011, 01:20 AM   #22
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

If they had found some teleporting device that allowed them to pop to the Unicomplex and then teleport away without anything left to trace, would anyone complain about that?
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Old July 22 2011, 01:22 AM   #23
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saquist wrote: View Post
Along with this zombie effect there was critical color added to all borg functions....green...tractor beams, lights of any kind and weapons were suddenly and inexplicably all green.
Wait... what became green that wasn't already green? In Q Who, the Borg ship had a green inner glow, green torpedoes, a green tractor beam, a green transporter effect, and there was green energy crackling around the tools on the drones' arms.
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Old July 22 2011, 02:28 AM   #24
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The simplicity with which the crew was un-Borged in Unimatrix Zero had to be one of the worst "weakening" issues. Why didn't they get cortical nodes in the middle of their foreheads?
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Old July 22 2011, 03:03 AM   #25
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Picard got de-Borged pretty easily. He didn't have a cortical node either.

I'm guessing they didn't get them because they were all adults when they were assimilated, as opposed to an undeveloped child.
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Old July 22 2011, 03:11 AM   #26
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I thought what they did with the Borg was fine.
The two parter set in the "minds" of former drones was pretty boring to me, though.
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Old July 22 2011, 07:42 AM   #27
Saquist
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
Saquist wrote: View Post
Along with this zombie effect there was critical color added to all borg functions....green...tractor beams, lights of any kind and weapons were suddenly and inexplicably all green.
Wait... what became green that wasn't already green? In Q Who, the Borg ship had a green inner glow, green torpedoes, a green tractor beam, a green transporter effect, and there was green energy crackling around the tools on the drones' arms.
No there was no green inner glow in Q who. Nor Green spolt lights.
The tractor beam in Q Who is blue. The BOBW borg tractor beam might be considered green.
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Old July 22 2011, 01:16 PM   #28
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The inner glow in Q Who? and BOBW was white.

No, the Borg Tractor beam in BOBW was blue and the cutting beam was white/yellow.

But in BOBW we also see them shooting some kind of energy weapon that's green (when they're shooting down the Mars Defense ships).

The Borg weapons in "Descent" are all green though. From the troopers to the big ship.
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Old July 22 2011, 03:31 PM   #29
zar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saquist wrote: View Post
No there was no green inner glow in Q who. Nor Green spolt lights.
The tractor beam in Q Who is blue. The BOBW borg tractor beam might be considered green.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Categor...8TNG:_Q_Who%29

Green inner glow can be seen in the first cube interior shot and all the exterior shots.

The green tractor beam is in the very last shot.

There's also a green "shield neutralizer" here.

The only Borg effects in this episode that weren't green were the personal shields and the cutting beam.
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Old July 22 2011, 03:40 PM   #30
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I liked the blue tractor beam better, actually.
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