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Old August 4 2011, 03:18 AM   #271
Gary7
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Based on how the debate has gone on in this thread... I think this thread has weakened the Borg more than Voyager.


The main problem is one of ambiguity. It exists quite a bit in Star Trek and essentially we have plenty of it regarding the Borg. So, to try making it all "fit together" between the various series, we have to make some assumptions and theories. But... there's a limit. And there is definitely no black-and-white. Usually there's plenty of gray. Yet every argument needs to have clear logic and fit within the framework. I've seen plenty of things said which are very loosely tied to anything we've seen in Star Trek...

On TBBS, there are members who will offer up their own theories and then stand by them through thick and thin, despite compelling arguments against. The sure sign of that is when someone ignores a very clear point made by one person, and instead focuses on what remains as ambiguous, in hopes of "scoring" a win. Or, falling back to a previous point in an argument that had already been discussed enough. It all turns into a game. A fruitless one at that.


The Borg was a boring villain.
The Borg have been weakened by VOY.
The Borg are...[insert claim].

These are very generalized statements. And unfortunately, arguments surrounding them have gone in circles in this thread. I really thought it was going to be one that would become an interesting reference about the Borg in Star Trek. Instead, it just goes on and on and on... not really accomplishing anything except that the realization that the debate has been going nowhere, thanks to original poster #2.

And so I will now step out. Good day.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:24 AM   #272
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saito S wrote: View Post
I like how you ignored my point asking you to prove that "Scorpion" is viewed badly by the hatedome, despite the fact that it was and is one of the most (if not THE most) beloved VOY episodes.
I didn't ignore it, I told you that whenever anyone mentions Voyager and the Borg in the same sentence it's always "Voyager ruined the Borg". No one ever mentions Scorpion as a "good Borg story" when discussing Voyager and the Borg, no one ever remarks that it was sensible to introduce other aliens as rivals to the Borg. All they ever say is "Voyager ruined the Borg" and that's it.

If Scorpion WAS that well-liked, it would withstand these critique and folks would say "Scorpion was good, but the other stories weren't."

No. You can't "disagree" with that article, sorry. The article goes out of its way to acknowledge the difference between and informed and uninformed opinion, thus covering its bases.
So it supports everyone then? That sometimes a loudmouth critique really is just a loudmouth critique and there's no weight to their words?

What you are saying is that if someone cannot come up with alternative storylines to fill in for the ones they don't like, they do not have the right to say that it could have been better. And that being the case, they should just 'fess up to "hating" it; to "being a hater".
If they have NOTHING nice to say about it, then that's what they are. This isn't "I think this could've been better, but it's not horrible", it's "This was complete and utter garbage from start to finish and might've somehow been better in some form."

This is bollocks. First off, as RyuRoots pointed out, there is a HUGE LINE between thinking it was great with almost no major flaws, and thinking it was AWFUL.

In your world, someone cannot simply dislike a story or be disappointed by it. They either can come up with something better themselves, or they are an irrational hater (and "always will be", no less!) of the work in question.
If they give a utterly negative critique, offer NOTHING save "might have been better, somehow." and this is repeated in most reviews of said shows multiple stories, I'd say it's clearly NOT a case of "It could have been better".

I actually thought of (and almost wrote up) a rebuttal to the whole "why do you need to be told a tactical cube is weaker than a normal cube, but not a probe ship?!" nonsense, but... eh, why bother, it will just be ignored or twisted.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:25 AM   #273
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Those ships WERE intended from day one TO be lesser than cubes.
All you have to back this up is...what exactly? The Descent ship was shown to have all the same power as a Cube, not weaker at all. How did you come to the conclusion it was weaker?

The Probe had the same adaptive power as the Cube, so how are you saying it was weaker?

Tell me how you came to the conclusion that both were intended to be weaker than an Assimilation Cube, when NOTHING in the shows explicitly say so other than that they got destroyed.

Tell me how you came to this conclusion, and why the same cannot be said about the Tactical Cube being weaker than an Assimilation Cube.
Let's compare what we were told about these ships.

The Descent ship fired, I think, a total of two torpedoes. I have no idea where you got the idea that it was "shown to have all the same power as a Cube". In fact, it was suspected by Picard of not being Borg at all, rather an assimilated alien ship.

The Dark Frontier ship was clearly presented as weak, with Chakotay commenting "this was just a probe, we might not be so lucky next time."

Finally, the tactical ship was introduced by Seven as being heavily armed and having advanced sensors. Her tone and facial expression implies that the crew is insane to even consider going up against it. The Doctor fearfully complains, "Can't we find another Borg ship? Something less imposing?"
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Old August 4 2011, 03:28 AM   #274
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Back to the original question I believe the borg were way overused on Voyager. That being said the "beginning of the end" for the borg as "First Contact". Borg queen!? Really!? They were scarier when you didn't know what was driving them, imo.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:28 AM   #275
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
If they have NOTHING nice to say about it, then that's what they are. This isn't "I think this could've been better, but it's not horrible", it's "This was complete and utter garbage from start to finish and might've somehow been better in some form."
If you wish, I will set my signature to "but it's not horrible."
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Old August 4 2011, 03:29 AM   #276
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Gary7 wrote: View Post
I really thought it was going to be one that would become an interesting reference about the Borg in Star Trek.
You won't find that in the Voyager forum, folks who hate the show will always use the Borg as an excuse to stir up another hate-thread and the defenders will shoot right back. There's too much over-the-top hatred for the show for there to be a calm discussion about things like the Borg here because it'll always end up as ammo in another hate-thread.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:37 AM   #277
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
The Descent ship fired, I think, a total of two torpedoes.
And these torpedoes were no weaker than the cutting beams used by the Cube. They were extremely powerful torpedoes.

I have no idea where you got the idea that it was "shown to have all the same power as a Cube".
It was huge, fast, had powerful weaponry and none of the ENT-D's weapons could scratch the thing. That description matches an Assimilation Cube pretty well.

The Dark Frontier ship was clearly presented as weak, with Chakotay commenting "this was just a probe, we might not be so lucky next time."
So, if that line was not spoonfed to us, we wouldn't have known it was weaker?

Finally, the tactical ship was introduced by Seven as being heavily armed and having advanced sensors.
Heavily armed and having advanced sensors in relation to what, exactly? Compared to VOY, or compared to an Assimilation Cube?

Her tone and facial expression implies that the crew is insane to even consider going up against it.
She thought their plans in "Scorpion" were insane too, and she was wrong about their ability then as well. It's just a character trait of hers to underestimate the VOY crew.

The Doctor fearfully complains, "Can't we find another Borg ship? Something less imposing?"
So he's a scaredy-cat?
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Old August 4 2011, 04:27 AM   #278
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Saito S wrote: View Post
I like how you ignored my point asking you to prove that "Scorpion" is viewed badly by the hatedome, despite the fact that it was and is one of the most (if not THE most) beloved VOY episodes.
I didn't ignore it, I told you that whenever anyone mentions Voyager and the Borg in the same sentence it's always "Voyager ruined the Borg". No one ever mentions Scorpion as a "good Borg story" when discussing Voyager and the Borg, no one ever remarks that it was sensible to introduce other aliens as rivals to the Borg. All they ever say is "Voyager ruined the Borg" and that's it.
No, you "replied" with a bunch of nonsense. None of what you are saying about "no one ever says X" and "people always say Y" is true. Furthermore, your personal anecdotal experiences do not count as "proof", in the context of backing up a claim that "Scorpion" is not well-loved, when it, in fact, is well-loved.

And this question has been asked numerous times, but we've rarely gotten a good answer. Who, exactly, are "they"?
If Scorpion WAS that well-liked,
IT WAS. Want "proof"?
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Scorpio...e%29#Reception
it would withstand these critique and folks would say "Scorpion was good, but the other stories weren't."
People DO say that. I've said it myself countless times.
No. You can't "disagree" with that article, sorry. The article goes out of its way to acknowledge the difference between an informed and uninformed opinion, thus covering its bases.
So it supports everyone then? That sometimes a loudmouth critique really is just a loudmouth critique and there's no weight to their words?
As I said, it touches on the difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed one. The article isn't ABOUT those who really ARE just irrational haters; of course they exist, no one is claiming otherwise. But you are labeling EVERYONE who didn't LOVE the show as such.
If they have NOTHING nice to say about it, then that's what they are. This isn't "I think this could've been better, but it's not horrible", it's "This was complete and utter garbage from start to finish and might've somehow been better in some form."
What is underlined is EXACTLY what it is, and has been for quite a long time.

This is why these blow-ups keep happening. For reasons known only to you, you like to pretend that almost all criticism of VOY falls into "I HATED IT IT WAS AWFUL" territory. I've lost track of how many times I myself have told you that I don't HATE the show, or think it's horrible, but just felt it had a lot of wasted potential; it was still a good show. That's ALL that I - and many on this BBS who have gone in circles with you over the years - have EVER SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. Yet every time this happens, you act as if you are responding to frothing anti-VOY hatred, when there hasn't BEEN any frothing anti-VOY hatred (and because you like to interpret things literally: no, I do not mean "NONE EVER LITERALLY NOT A SINGLE PERSON EVER SAYS THEY COMPLETELY HATE VOYAGER." I'm sure there are people out there who just hate everything about it, as with ANY show, and some of them might even post here every now and then. But you treat it as if it is the majority opinion among those who don't LOVE the show, when it is clearly not).

You also, as zar pointed out, roll things back in time every time this stuff comes up. You and I have had DIRECT conversations in previous threads about these very subjects, and I have laid out my opinions on various aspects of the show, and the show as a whole, VERY VERY plainly multiple times in those threads. Yet here you are again, asserting that all you ever hear from "us" is VOYAGER RUINED THE BORG HATE HATE HATE!

And again, as I said above: who are "they"??
I actually thought of (and almost wrote up) a rebuttal to the whole "why do you need to be told a tactical cube is weaker than a normal cube, but not a probe ship?!" nonsense, but... eh, why bother, it will just be ignored or twisted.
Zar can't be bothered, you go ahead.
zar has since done so, and pretty well at that, so never mind.

Just one little thing I will touch on regarding that subject. "Probe ship" implicitly implies a weak ship because IT'S A PROBE. Common sense (in Trek and the real world) makes "it's much weaker than a cube" the default position.

"Tactical Cube" implies a cube (thus, something on the same general level as the cube from BoBW, even if it's not exactly the same). And "tactical", of course, refers to combat ability, certainly in real life, but even more so in Trek, where the term "tactical" subs in for "specialist in offensive/defensive systems" quite often (and can refer to an individual or a ship). The default assumption in that case is a very POWERFUL ship; for it to be far less powerful than a Borg ship seen previously is backwards. And even if it's smaller (it may or may not be, I lost track of the debate on that point a while ago), so what? The Sovereign is smaller than the Galaxy, yet it's tactically superior.
kimc wrote: View Post
Back to the original question I believe the borg were way overused on Voyager. That being said the "beginning of the end" for the borg as "First Contact". Borg queen!? Really!? They were scarier when you didn't know what was driving them, imo.
I agree. FC is one of my favorites of the movies, but I like it in spite of the Queen, because everything else about it is just so damned good that I can overlook the big, glaring flaw. But that said, I think she was a bad idea (in particular, as not only an "individual" villain, but a rather emotional, obtuse, mustache-twirling VILLAIN), and would have preferred the movie to not have her.

The one thing that Saves the Queen is the explanation for her existence offered up by the Destiny novel trilogy (as part of the Borg origin story revealed in that trilogy). It actually makes it kinda make SENSE.

I also agree that one of VOY's biggest problems with the Borg was simple overuse. They shouldn't have showed up that many times; the Borg do work better when they are not around so much (but that doesn't excuse all of the lazy writing that went into several of those appearances, IMO).
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Old August 5 2011, 08:26 AM   #279
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Saito S wrote: View Post
I also agree that one of VOY's biggest problems with the Borg was simple overuse. They shouldn't have showed up that many times; the Borg do work better when they are not around so much (but that doesn't excuse all of the lazy writing that went into several of those appearances, IMO).

THANK YOU!!!

They could've easily spent that time showing us things we didn't know about the borg:
  1. Origin (the
    origin, from the trilogy Destiny, was particularly satisfying)
  2. An assimilation of a species that involved ripping up whole cities off the planet, like we've been told in TNG, and that only required 1 cube, instead of the 2 we saw in Dark Frontier (a silly portrayal of assimilation, by the way. Borg compassion? 2 cubes to assimilate a single colony? Give me a break).
  3. An explanation as to why the Borg don't just swarm through the Federation.
  4. An explanation as to why that original Borg cube (TNG: The Neutral Zone) only assimilated those Romulan and Federation outposts and then turned around, instead of heading to the respective home worlds and continuing the onslaught.
  5. Explain the Borg Queen's existence

These things build on the character of the Borg. Four or five episodes of potential great Borg stories that don't diminish their power. Anyway, I'm bowing out of this debate. It's run it's course.
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Old August 5 2011, 01:07 PM   #280
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

1) No one would really care about that. It wouldn't add to the show.

2) How exactly would this be pulled off? By having VOY run into a world being attacked by the Borg and just standing there watching them kill off a people and then run away like a bunch of spineless cowards?

3) They tried that with "Scorpion", the reaction to that speaks for itself as to why they didn't try other stuff like that.

4) They were unimpressed with what they found, easily rationalized.

5) To try and give them a noted individual, like Dukat for the Cardassians.
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Old August 5 2011, 08:12 PM   #281
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

1) and 2) are just more examples of your own lack of imagination, and another implicit Let's-See-You-Do-Better argument.

3) has two problems: First, you're ignoring reality as Saito S futilely tried to show you for what was probably the twentieth time. Second, whatever explanation the existence of 8472 gave for the lack of Borg invasions, it was totally undone by VOY's revelation that the Borg were fully capable of sending a huge fleet of cubes directly to Earth.

4) is fanwank, and 5) isn't in-universe.
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Old August 5 2011, 08:25 PM   #282
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Luminus wrote:
5. Explain the Borg Queen's existence
This was going to be done in a fifth-season episode of Enterprise, guest starring Alice Krige as a Starfleet medical technician. It would have also explained the Borg's obsession with Earth and humans.
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Old August 5 2011, 08:48 PM   #283
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
1) and 2) are just more examples of your own lack of imagination, and another implicit Let's-See-You-Do-Better argument.

3) has two problems: First, you're ignoring reality as Saito S futilely tried to show you for what was probably the twentieth time. Second, whatever explanation the existence of 8472 gave for the lack of Borg invasions, it was totally undone by VOY's revelation that the Borg were fully capable of sending a huge fleet of cubes directly to Earth.

4) is fanwank, and 5) isn't in-universe.
Explaining the origin of the Borg would be meaningless to the show, unless they made the Caretaker's species the main bad guys of the show and revealed that they created the Borg as an experiment thousands of years ago. And even then it wouldn't really serve any purpose for the story except for the audience to take another unfair swipe at VOY for "ruining the Borg's aura of mystery."

2) Showing a Borg invasion of some world, a successful one, would require VOY to be there. For it to be a successful invasion, VOY must either try and fail to save that world (making them incompetents) or just do nothing and run away with some "We can't do anything" justification that would irrevocably make them spineless cowards.

3) If there are true rivals to the Borg in the Delta Quadrant, it's the perfect excuse: They're too busy fighting for their lives in their own home territory against their rivals to invade other Quadrants in real force. But no one can accept the idea of the Borg ever having rivals because TNG said no such thing.

4) They'd already sampled Fed tech before "Q Who?", this is canon even within TNG itself.

5) Who cares? It's clear what the intention was.

Hell, if the Great Link in DS9 was at first thought of as a Collective but then the Female Founder came out of it to act as a representative (a fully sentient one) no one would complain.
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Old August 5 2011, 09:12 PM   #284
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's starting to make sense now. That mysterious "unpleasable audience" you keep referring to is you.
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Old August 5 2011, 09:37 PM   #285
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
It's starting to make sense now. That mysterious "unpleasable audience" you keep referring to is you.
That...would explain a lot, actually.
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