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Old August 4 2011, 01:34 AM   #256
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

There was no implication that the ship from Descent was weaker. Weapons were just as ineffective on it as the Assimilation Cube. The only clue we had that it was different in any way was that it didn't look like a Cube.

Same for the Probe, it had adaptive powers just like the Cube did.

And NO ONE had any problems with either one being destroyed more easily than the Cube.

I've completely lost track of what your point is. What are you asking and why
I'm asking if there was any way you would ever accept VOY taking on a Tactical Cube without them being spineless cowards who sh*t themselves at the sight of a Borg. Seriously, WHAT DOES IT TAKE?! What contrivance would make it acceptable?

OR

What would it take for you to accept that a Tactical Cube is a weaker class of Borg vessel?
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Old August 4 2011, 01:44 AM   #257
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
There was no implication that the ship from Descent was weaker. Weapons were just as ineffective on it as the Assimilation Cube. The only clue we had that it was different in any way was that it didn't look like a Cube.

Same for the Probe, it had adaptive powers just like the Cube did.
Yes there was.

I'm sorry, did you need it spoonfed to you?




Anwar wrote: View Post
I'm asking if there was any way you would ever accept VOY taking on a Tactical Cube without them being spineless cowards who sh*t themselves at the sight of a Borg. Seriously, WHAT DOES IT TAKE?! What contrivance would make it acceptable?
Well I'm not going to answer that.

Instead, I'll give you some relevant reading material:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...SeeYOUDoBetter


Anwar wrote: View Post
What would it take for you to accept that a Tactical Cube is a weaker class of Borg vessel?
I could accept an in-universe explanation to this effect, after the fact (Trek-lit authors love doing this sort of thing), but it's too late to defend the creators of VOY for making the mistake in the first place.
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Old August 4 2011, 01:55 AM   #258
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I can accept both the "Descent" ship and the Probe being destroyed, despite nothing being said outright that they were weaker ships. However, you DO need it spoonfed to you that not all Borg ships in VOY were as powerful as the Assimilation Cube.

Sad.

I suppose you'll say "They destroyed the Descent ship with a solar flare and since we never saw a Borg Cube destroyed by a Solar Flare it HAS to be weaker".

Well I'm not going to answer that.
So you accept that there was no way you could ever see Voyager engage a Tactical Cube without them ending up a bunch of spineless cowards by the end of it.

Instead, I'll give you some relevant reading material
Irrelevant.

I could accept an in-universe explanation to this effect, after the fact
This whole thread suggests otherwise.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:05 AM   #259
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Irrelevant.


And you accuse others of needing everything spelled out for them...


Anwar wrote: View Post
I could accept an in-universe explanation to this effect, after the fact
This whole thread suggests otherwise.
I first explicitly said this over a hundred posts ago.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:15 AM   #260
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

I happen to disagree with the article, and I do agree that unless you have even a remote idea of how it alternately could have gone you should just stick to "I hate this" instead of "It could be better" and make it clear you're just a hater and always will be.

I first explicitly said this over a hundred posts ago
And yet you needed no such explanation for the Descent ship or the Probe.

If you need them to explicitly say "The Tactical Cube is weaker than an Assimilation Cube" then you also need them to say explicitly say "The Renegade Borg ship is weaker than a Cube" and "The Probe is weaker than a Cube".

Yet despite this you accept the latter WITHOUT anything explicit.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:28 AM   #261
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Those ships WERE intended from day one TO be lesser than cubes. Not so with the cubes in VOY. When you concoct the "message" where it didn't exist, that falls purely into the realm of fanwank.

I'm really getting tired of having to repeat myself because you keep rolling back the discussion as if it never happened and repeating your old arguments.

VOY cubes were based on FC cubes which were depicted to be as devastating as QW and BOBW cubes (enough to punch through Starfleet's entire line of defense and assimilate Earth). Saying otherwise is pure fanwank, NOT an intended or implied story element that I just happened to miss because I'm a hater.

"Assimilation Cubes" don't exist canonically.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:39 AM   #262
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I happen to disagree with the article, and I do agree that unless you have even a remote idea of how it alternately could have gone you should just stick to "I hate this" instead of "It could be better" and make it clear you're just a hater and always will be.
...do you REALLY not see a difference between those? Seriously? "X could be better" means you hate something? I would follow that up with an ironic statement but I know it'd be taken at face value.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:44 AM   #263
Anwar
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Those ships WERE intended from day one TO be lesser than cubes.
All you have to back this up is...what exactly? The Descent ship was shown to have all the same power as a Cube, not weaker at all. How did you come to the conclusion it was weaker?

The Probe had the same adaptive power as the Cube, so how are you saying it was weaker?

Tell me how you came to the conclusion that both were intended to be weaker than an Assimilation Cube, when NOTHING in the shows explicitly say so other than that they got destroyed.

Tell me how you came to this conclusion, and why the same cannot be said about the Tactical Cube being weaker than an Assimilation Cube.

The Cube from FC was already weaker and smaller than the one from Q Who?/BOBW, so that's covered.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:46 AM   #264
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

RyuRoots wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I happen to disagree with the article, and I do agree that unless you have even a remote idea of how it alternately could have gone you should just stick to "I hate this" instead of "It could be better" and make it clear you're just a hater and always will be.
...do you REALLY not see a difference between those? Seriously? "X could be better" means you hate something? I would follow that up with an ironic statement but I know it'd be taken at face value.
I'm saying that unless you really DO have any ideas on how it really could be better, you shouldn't bother saying anything like that and just admit you just don't like the work in question.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:49 AM   #265
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Gary7 wrote: View Post


In defense of exodus, remember that the hard core fans who pay attention to all of the details are a minority. A rather prominent minority. The producers needed to make money and cater to the largest audience. They did make efforts to appease the dedicated fans... but this was a lower priority. You can see it. It's only unfortunate in the long run, as people who buy the Blu-ray/DVD's will watch the shows with more attention. They watch episodes at their own pace and don't miss any because they forgot to set the DVR. Inconsistencies become more noticeable. But... the video discs are purchased already, so would it really matter to the creators? Perhaps... more glowing reviews would help motivate more sales.
Thank you, Gary 7.
Much appreciated.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:51 AM   #266
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
RyuRoots wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I happen to disagree with the article, and I do agree that unless you have even a remote idea of how it alternately could have gone you should just stick to "I hate this" instead of "It could be better" and make it clear you're just a hater and always will be.
...do you REALLY not see a difference between those? Seriously? "X could be better" means you hate something? I would follow that up with an ironic statement but I know it'd be taken at face value.
I'm saying that unless you really DO have any ideas on how it really could be better, you shouldn't bother saying anything like that and just admit you just don't like the work in question.
"You have to know how to create something better to criticize a thing" is a frankly ludicrous concept and one I refuse to even consider to take seriously. And there IS a frigging middle ground inbetween "I HATE THIS" and "it's the best thing ever"; it's called "I like it but it has some problems". Whether you like it or not, that IS the case.
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Old August 4 2011, 02:59 AM   #267
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's not a choice between "I like it but it has some problems" and "I HATE THIS", it's a choice between "This is garbage and could easily be better" and "I HATE THIS". Liking it doesn't even enter the equation. This is when it's a purely negative critique.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:02 AM   #268
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
zar wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
And you're the one who keeps dodging the "spoonfeed" thing. DO you think the audience needs to be spoonfed everything, or not?
No, Anwar, I don't believe that.
Good, too bad you'd need to be in the case of Voyager and the Borg though. This thread proves that.

As for Borg "Villain Decay", that started back in TNG. It just wasn't as noticeable because the audience didn't hate TNG like they did with VOY.
I agree with this.
Making Hugh a docile Borg for a "race"of people hell bent on assimilating mankind made the Borg weak because they represented the drones as punks. One drone alone is supposed to be able to assimilate an entire ship. He didn't and that represents a large tactical flaw. I feel it showed the Borg as having more bark than bite.
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Last edited by exodus; August 4 2011 at 03:13 AM.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:06 AM   #269
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I happen to disagree with the article, and I do agree that unless you have even a remote idea of how it alternately could have gone you should just stick to "I hate this" instead of "It could be better" and make it clear you're just a hater and always will be.
I like how you ignored my point asking you to prove that "Scorpion" is viewed badly by the hatedome, despite the fact that it was and is one of the most (if not THE most) beloved VOY episodes. Not that I'm surprised, mind you.

No. You can't "disagree" with that article, sorry. The article goes out of its way to acknowledge the difference between and informed and uninformed opinion, thus covering its bases. This is not a matter of opinion or interpretation, you are incorrect.

What you are saying is that if someone cannot come up with alternative storylines to fill in for the ones they don't like, they do not have the right to say that it could have been better. And that being the case, they should just 'fess up to "hating" it; to "being a hater". This is bollocks. First off, as RyuRoots pointed out, there is a HUGE LINE between thinking it was great with almost no major flaws, and thinking it was AWFUL. I know you hate the concept of middle ground for some reason, but you cannot ignore the fact that the vast majority of situations in life involve a LOT of middle ground; certainly a discussion about the quality of a show exists almost entirely in the middle ground. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, you are trying to say that if someone cannot come up with a better story, than for them to criticize the story that's there makes them a hater. In your world, someone cannot simply dislike a story or be disappointed by it. They either can come up with something better themselves, or they are an irrational hater (and "always will be", no less!) of the work in question.

And in asserting that, you are wrong. Period.
zar wrote: View Post
I'm really getting tired of having to repeat myself because you keep rolling back the discussion as if it never happened and repeating your old arguments.
That's how this always goes. I've dealt with this phenomenon many times.

I actually thought of (and almost wrote up) a rebuttal to the whole "why do you need to be told a tactical cube is weaker than a normal cube, but not a probe ship?!" nonsense, but... eh, why bother, it will just be ignored or twisted.
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Old August 4 2011, 03:07 AM   #270
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
It's not a choice between "I like it but it has some problems" and "I HATE THIS", it's a choice between "This is garbage and could easily be better" and "I HATE THIS". Liking it doesn't even enter the equation. This is when it's a purely negative critique.
Actually,liking it DOES come into the equation. Most people who say "[X episode or x concept] could've been better" explicitly have told you they don't hate it, not that I expect you to acknowledge it.
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