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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 27 2011, 12:15 AM   #136
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
And what we see on-screen is that all Borg encounters, starting in FC, had Borg ships smaller and weaker than the one in TNG.
It was still depicted as an utterly hopeless battle.

Perhaps you can say that the cube in FC was "weaker" than the one in BOBW because they were at least able to scratch the hull (although this is better explained by the fact that Starfleet has new weaponry), but the fleet still stood no chance. It was certainly not weak. Yet the ones in VOY are the same type of cube.
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Old July 27 2011, 02:20 AM   #137
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It wasn't utterly hopeless, they were still doing better than Wolf 359. Hopeless would be if they hadn't dented the Cube at all the whole time.

And like it was pointed out here, the one and only time VOY even destroyed any Cubes it was with future tech meant for killing Borg.
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Old July 27 2011, 03:26 AM   #138
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

It's not about whether Voyager can destroy a cube or not.

Chipping away at the external hull was useless because there wouldn't have been enough time to do any decisive damage. It was a battle of attrition. Starfleet's entire force was being picked off, one by one. Yes - Hopeless.

And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...

Now we can dream up all kinds of explanations for these things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it doesn't negate the statement: "Voyager weakened the Borg." It just updates it to: "Voyager weakened the Borg, and then I used my imagination to strengthen them again."
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Old July 27 2011, 04:49 AM   #139
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

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Then they should've had some discussion about it at some point, something like "These Borg creatures were once considered out greatest threat. Nowadays we know that they're just one of many."
They weren't, so why would they say that they were? Of all the threats Q alluded to, the Borg WERE the only actual threat to them because the Borg were the only ones who knew about their existence and had any reason to come after them.
Why does everyone forget the Q as beings more powerful than the Borg and possible threats? There was proof there were beings more powerful than the Borg right in front of us since "Farpoint..."

Q could have shown us ALL the other alien threats in the galaxy and none would be considered more of a possable threat than him.
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Old July 27 2011, 05:00 AM   #140
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

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zar wrote: View Post
You concede that the tactical cube is the same size as the standard cube as seen in FC, yet still argue that it's weak ? The FC cube was a major threat that was beating the entire fleet to a pulp.
The FC Cube was weaker than the one in TNG: In TNG they Armada couldn't even scratch the Cube whereas in FC they were able to do damage to it before Picard told them where the weak point was.

The FC Cube was still smaller than the one from TNG.

So it all comes down to "Yes, I need them to spoon feed it to me that the Borg ships were weaker than the massive one from TNG."
No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.
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Old July 27 2011, 05:08 AM   #141
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
It's not about whether Voyager can destroy a cube or not.

Chipping away at the external hull was useless because there wouldn't have been enough time to do any decisive damage. It was a battle of attrition. Starfleet's entire force was being picked off, one by one. Yes - Hopeless.

And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...

Now we can dream up all kinds of explanations for these things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it doesn't negate the statement: "Voyager weakened the Borg." It just updates it to: "Voyager weakened the Borg, and then I used my imagination to strengthen them again."
If Voyager was built after BOBW and after the Defiant.
Wouldn't Starfleet also keep in mind that if the Borg are coming that all new ship build after the Defiant would have to be equipped with defenses to fend off an attack? Why would they keep making ships that weren't safe and keep sending good Officers out in them? It's why they kept stressing how top of the line Voyager was and why it had gel packs to make computer processing as fast as thought..............similar to a Borg Cube.
Without the Tri-Cobalt torpedo's, Voyager can't beat a Cube but it's designed to take a beating, defend itself and run.
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Old July 27 2011, 05:55 AM   #142
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

exodus wrote: View Post
No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.
No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance.
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Old July 27 2011, 06:04 AM   #143
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

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exodus wrote: View Post
No, FC happened after BOBW.
In BOBW the Admiral states Starfllet was already in development of better weapons, shields & ships but they just hadn't finished building them yet. BTT FC happens many of those weapons are already installed on Starships. Proof is Voyager now equipped with Tri-Cobalt torpedos. The Borg in FC weren't weaker, we had upgraded our shields & weapons.
It had been four years inbetween BOBW and FC. Plenty of time to upgrade a fleet.
No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance.
Is it stated in an ep. that the Borg are upgrading on a faster rate or do we just assume that?

"Hope & Fear" gave the impression that they don't upgrade that fast. "Dark Frointer" showed that even with assimilated knowledge, they could still be fooled using tech they already knew about. Shouldn't the rotating shields not work anymore or allowing a few Borg to die before they adapt to phaser fire? Borg shields should activate upon the first shot if upgraded, especially since they assimilated Starfleet Engineers with knowledge of all that. If we don't stand a chance, why is the Queen still trying to figure out how to bring down our resistance? Why not just come and take us?
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Old July 27 2011, 12:54 PM   #144
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post
And we must accept that Voyager, a single starship, can dance around like a fly and survive attacks from these very same cubes. Or that Seven's parents in their little boat can walk right up to Borg Central and spy on them...
The ENT-D survived attacks from the much more powerful Cube in BOBW.

Seven's parents being allowed to observe the Borg fits every other appearance where the Borg just ignore folks until they do something to get noticed.

No. It had been 6 years and in that time the Borg are also upgrading their technology at a MUCH faster rate. So nothing Starfleet comes up with could ever stand a chance
Which is why the Borg are only good for 1-2 stories.
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Old July 27 2011, 08:03 PM   #145
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

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Which is why the Borg are only good for 1-2 stories.
I don't buy that for an instant, but for the sake of argument let's say you're right.

How is this a defense?

VOY chose to ignore this supposed fact, so the responsibility and blame is still theirs.
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Old July 27 2011, 08:47 PM   #146
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

No, it's TNG for not getting rid of them in a final way in the first place. At least DS9 ended the Dominion story with SOME conclusion so it'd be okay to not see them again.
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Old July 27 2011, 09:48 PM   #147
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Oh I see -- because TNG didn't wrap up the Borg and put a little bow on them, the other series were forced to continuously bring them back. I guess that's why they kept showing up in DS9. And why we kept seeing the Whale Probes, Genesis technology, Farpoint Squids, planet killers...
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Old July 28 2011, 01:02 AM   #148
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

The Planet Killer was a one-shot destroyed in the end.

The Jellyfish were one-shots.

The Genesis Tech was revealed to be inherently flawed and thus wrapped up.

The Whale Probe was a one-shot.

DS9 did what you're SUPPOSED to do with a massive new threat: wrap them up in a way that ends the story appropriately even if you didn't destroy said enemy (The Dominion).

VOY had them in the Borg homeland, it wouldn't make sense for them NOT to repeatedly show up.

Now, if TNG had done more to wrap up the Borg instead of just leaving them alone (like finding the Transwarp Conduit that leads to the Alpha Quadrant and destroying it, or explaining that each Borg Cube is its own Collective and that One Cube didn't tell other Borg about the Alpha Quadrant, ANYTHING really) then that would be that.

Instead, they irresponsibly just left them out there waiting for their next invasion.
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Old July 28 2011, 01:56 AM   #149
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Instead, they irresponsibly just left them out there waiting for their next invasion.
Like this, you mean?

SPOCK: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those [planet killers] wandering around the universe."



What are you talking about? How were any of those wrapped up? Who built the probe and the planet killer? Where's the rest of the species the jellyfish belong to? Genesis wasn't inherently flawed, it was only flawed because of the unauthorized shortcut David took. And there are tons of other examples.


Anwar wrote: View Post
VOY had them in the Borg homeland, it wouldn't make sense for them NOT to repeatedly show up.
The Delta Quadrant wasn't Borg Homeland any more than the Alpha Quadrant was the homeland of all of the above. Both of them are a quarter of the entire galaxy.

VOY was under no continuity obligation to have Voyager come across the Borg, they merely had greater opportunity -- an opportunity which according to you, they shouldn't have taken at all... yet they did, so I once again bizarrely find myself in the position of defending VOY against your arguments, which are becoming more and more flimsy by the post.
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Old July 28 2011, 02:16 AM   #150
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Re: Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

zar wrote: View Post

SPOCK: "I can't help wondering if there are any more of those [planet killers] wandering around the universe."

Random conjecture isn't the same as Guinan and Q pretty much telling us the Borg are coming back.

What are you talking about? How were any of those wrapped up?
They were never made out to be anything more than One-Shots to begin with. They were not expounded upon in their episodes the way the Borg were.

]The Delta Quadrant wasn't Borg Homeland any more than the Alpha Quadrant was the homeland of all of the above. Both of them are a quarter of the entire galaxy.
The Gamma Quadrant was one quarter the Galaxy, didn't stop DS9 from continually saying the Dominion ran most of it.

And TNG itself said that the Borg were from there in "Descent".

VOY was under no continuity obligation to have Voyager come across the Borg.
TNG said they were from there, and DS9 made out the Dominion (weaker than the Borg) to be the ruling power of the Gamma Quadrant. Put these together and you get the Borg ruling the majority of the Delta Quadrant, and thus VOY would run into them a lot for the entire show's run.

And they couldn't do anything creative like try and build a Delta Alliance to fight off the Borg, because that would violate the show's premise.
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