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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 29 2012, 08:07 PM   #1
Jeff O'Connor
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The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing huge



I know, I know. "Think three-dimensionally; there's plenty of space above and below it", but that thing is expansive as hell. It just... I mean, I look at maps from Star Charts and whatnot, and from one end to the other, it absolutely dwarfs the Federation, Klingon and Romulan Empires in size.

I understand this has certainly been discussed to death several times over, but I just felt a profound need to state the obvious, here. It kind of makes me laugh that Janeway's jaw didn't drop when Seven showed her that image.

Omega Particle, pfft.
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Old July 30 2012, 08:15 PM   #2
Guy Gardener
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

At it's height in the center the galaxy is 500 light years up, and 500 light years down that winnows down to a conceptual wedge when you finally make it to the galactic barrier.

We live on a plane, not a sphere.

The galaxy is flat.

i think the more important question of note is why that snap shot you took has the closest antenna in the network perhaps some 25 thousand light years from the border tot he Alpha Quadrant.

If every one of those nodes in the network has a range of 25 thousand light years, then surely four of them could cover the entire galaxy, if one was placed at the centre of each quadrant?

So really.

That pattern is stupid.

Unless it's more a question of security and what we are seeing are more phone booths than transponder towers?
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Old July 30 2012, 08:26 PM   #3
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

Yeah, really makes me wonder. Even phone booths that wide! Just massive in scale, what the hell. What have we explored of the Alpha Quadrant, according to the sometimes-wrong, often-"right" Star Charts? Like... 15% of it or something?

And then take another look at that pic.
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Old July 30 2012, 08:31 PM   #4
Timo
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

The galaxy is flat.
The brightly glowing parts of it, certainly. But Trek has shown that planets and civilizations exist around the unlikeliest of stars, so there could well be star systems of significance in the galactic halo as well. And that's roughly spherical, and thus tens of thousands of lightyears "high".

i think the more important question of note is why that snap shot you took has the closest antenna in the network perhaps some 25 thousand light years from the border tot he Alpha Quadrant.
...If we assume that the four spokes there denote quadrant borders, that is.

Funnily enough, this appears not to be the case. The onscreen route map of the Voyager, as reproduced on pp. 76-77 of the Star Charts booklet, shows a galactic spiral that is shaped or at least oriented quite differently vs. the axes.

If we instead assume those spokes represent the centerlines of the galactic wedges, with the UFP in the middle of the wedge with the additional edge symbology, then the commnet layout makes perfect sense...

(No, that doesn't exactly match the canonical galactic spiral, either. But it's a somewhat closer match...)

What have we explored of the Alpha Quadrant, according to the sometimes-wrong, often-"right" Star Charts? Like... 15% of it or something?
"Where No One Has Gone Before" says 11% of the galaxy is explored (without specifying quadrants; these episodes preceded the invention of the four-quadrant system, after all); "The Dauphin" says 19%. Take your pick, invent your excuse, redefine your terms...

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Old July 31 2012, 01:23 AM   #5
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

A lot of the conceptual spirit of the Delta Quadrant is a giant, uncharted wilderness filled with small tribes, ancient civilizations that are basically gone, reclusive powers, wild spatial phenomena, and of course, the Borg, which is kind of like a giant zombie kingdom (think of all the dead worlds, all the civilizations in the Borg Collective where they harvested all life from, even animal life from the world, and destroyed the world's ecosystem to turn it into a resource-extraction mine, all the structures they destroyed. A whole swath of the Delta Quadrant is "dead"). The Hirogen are another fallen civilization. They had closer ties, but became ever more reclusive nomads. As the dude in the Nazi costume said, their core civilization was all but gone. They had pretty advanced tech, no doubt from when they were closer tied together. Sure, individual hunters might invent new hunting gear/weapons to adapt to resiliant prey, but odds are due to those ever thinning ties, the discoveries don't get shared. They seem to have built that network (unless it's from an even older civilization and they salvaged an abandoned network like the Stargate system or the Jumpgate system).

The Delta Quadrant had a few quadrant-spanning things: the Borg Collective, the Hirogen communications relay, and the Vaadwaur subspace corridors.

I mean, I look at maps from Star Charts and whatnot, and from one end to the other, it absolutely dwarfs the Federation, Klingon and Romulan Empires in size.
But they are spread out so thin, they've become a bunch of individuals or bands. They've lost their status as a civilization.

The galaxy is flat.
Yes, but it's what, 1000-2000 ly thick? It's flat, but not thin.
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Old August 7 2012, 06:59 PM   #6
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

Did the Hirogen say they built it or was it a relic of anothr civilisation that they laid claim to?
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Old August 7 2012, 07:27 PM   #7
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

They call it "our property" once in "Hunters", and that's pretty much it. But they call a lot of things their property, or "relics of the hunt" or whatever.

Janeway: "Do you know why the relay network was so important to them?"
Tuvok: "No. I assume they used it for communications as we did. "
It's probably just as likely that the Hirogen used it for hanging their trophies on, as our heroes had no real evidence of them using it for communications.

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Old August 8 2012, 11:14 AM   #8
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

Not that there's any proof, but they could have forgotten that they made it, if we consider the splintering of their communities to be so extreme that they don't even have an oral history any more, that they could have made the network, lost track or it, and then a thousand years later they say hot shit, look what we found!

But it's Talos IV all over again.
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Old August 8 2012, 09:05 PM   #9
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

They could equally well have forgotten that they did not make it. Happens all the time ITRW...

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Old August 16 2012, 12:10 PM   #10
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

The communications network seem to be the infrastructure of a civilization that was similar to but much older and larger than the present day UFP, and after this mysterious civilization fell into ruin that large part of the galaxy became the comparative wilderness largely occupied by the Borge Collective (for all we know the Borg could've been a side effect or partial cause for the collapse of the ancient hegemony that once held together the Delta Quadrant).
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Old August 16 2012, 12:32 PM   #11
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

I was going to say... Then why didn't they assimilate it?

Well, it's obviously substantially inferior technology to transsubspaceradio.

So I was going to say then... Why didn't they assimilate the raw resources?

The mass of teran garbage can stuffed with metal and wires every hundred light years in every direction?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

They'd bypass hundreds of planetary systems to fetch a tiny relay/booster identical to the hundreds if not thousands which they've already assimilated?

Oh...

And who's to say that the network wasn't 4 times the size, 10 times the size, it is in that episode 800 years earlier when the Borg first started making waves?
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Old August 16 2012, 08:28 PM   #12
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

Thousands of years old. Spans half the galaxy.

...Janeway trashes it in two days
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Old August 16 2012, 09:50 PM   #13
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Thousands of years old. Spans half the galaxy.

...Janeway trashes it in two days
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Old August 27 2012, 08:12 AM   #14
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Thousands of years old. Spans half the galaxy.

...Janeway trashes it in two days
The network was 100 000 years old...
Janeway merely weakened the damping field around the station to force the Hunters into retreat and protect her ship.
If you were in a similar situation, wouldn't you use whatever means at your disposal to protect your ship?

If anything... the race that built the relay network could have been constructed by the same race that built the Ocean Planet in the episode '30 days'.
The technologies certainly exhibit some similarities - especially in their estimated age (they are from the same era).
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Old August 27 2012, 08:19 AM   #15
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Re: The "Hirogen" communications network... good lord, was that thing

If you were in a similar situation, wouldn't you use whatever means at your disposal to protect your ship?
Well, that is the question, in quite a few scifi shows. If you could save your own sorry ass by making the great pyramids collapse, should you? (Or, considering how functional this network was... If you could save your own sorry ass by making the internet disappear forever, should you? )

It wouldn't be difficult to imagine Starfleet hearing about this and ruling that Janeway's decision to save her own life at such a high cost was so faulty that she would have to give it up in (lamentably insufficient) retribution. OTOH, it isn't difficult, either, to imagine a Starfleet that wantonly destroys cultural relics or alien lifeforms simply because they aren't human and aren't useful to humans. But at least Star Trek is among those rare shows where the human players could recognize their own relative insignificance, even if it often takes quite a bit of effort...

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