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Old April 26 2015, 07:23 PM   #1
Autistoid
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Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Alright we all know that star trek wasn't developed with modern standards in mind, nor was there unlimited amount of resources to develop the series.


So what are some pieces of baggage that annoy you, with respect to carry over.


I personally don't like holodecks or transporters.

Holodecks were a late add on, and seem to make little sense relative to what we now understand as a more likely version of VR.

Transporters on the other hand are much more an issue of production. Obviously craft launches and landings would of been too expensive without, however at this point seems to be a needless part of the show.

EDIT: Be clear I'm not completely against transporters I just think they have been over used, and often get in the way of more interesting possibilities.
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Old April 26 2015, 07:46 PM   #2
Christopher
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

There's a ton of baggage I'd like to see discarded if Trek were rebooted from scratch, all the stuff rooted in the '60s origins of the show and the earlier pulps that influenced it. The human-centrism, the predominance of characters from Western cultures with names of mostly British or Irish origin, the abundance of humanoid and human-appearing aliens, the lack of genetic engineering and transhumanism, the rarity of sentient or superintelligent AIs, the lack of advanced materials and molecular engineering, the inclusion of psi powers, etc. I'd also ditch the tendency to create new random aliens-of-the-week that are never seen again, and instead put more effort into developing a more limited pool of races and building a more cohesive picture of the Federation's members and neighbors.

Oh, and a more coherent treatment of sensors. No more treating them as something separate from visual observation (e.g. "We can see it but sensors don't register it"); surely sensors would include telescopes. Anything in the open on a planet surface could be directly, visually observed from orbit, as spy satellites can do today. No "sensor interference" would prevent that unless it were actual opaque clouds or something. Also, "sensor range" should be effectively limitless, allowing only for resolution and lightspeed lag; there are no horizons in space. Eventually, powerful enough telescopes should let us image and map alien worlds from parsecs away, so no more stories where the characters know nothing about a star system until they reach it. (And no more falling out of orbit when the engines go off. The Moon doesn't need engines. Orbit isn't powered flight.)


Autistoid wrote: View Post
Holodecks were a late add on, and seem to make little sense relative to what we now understand as a more likely version of VR.
I'm not so sure about that anymore. I've read that there are some fundamental limitations to something like VR goggles or the Oculus Rift or the like, since our eyes are always going to focus differently on a close-up image than a distant one, so a close-up image pretending to be distant is always going to confuse the brain. Also there's the time lag between when we turn our heads and when the VR updates the image to follow, which can be made smaller but not eliminated entirely. So that kind of VR may never be perfectly convincing or comfortable, and could cause motion sickness or the like for some people. The same could conceivably go for direct sensory induction, since there's going to be a difference between what you're made to see/feel and what your body actually senses about its environment. So that would only work if your perception of reality were completely suppressed and overridden by the illusion, and that could be potentially hazardous.

So it might be that, once the technology is available, something like a holodeck would be a better, more convincing alternative than the kinds of VR you usually see in fiction.


Transporters on the other hand are much more an issue of production. Obviously craft launches and landings would of been too expensive without, however at this point seems to be a needless part of the show.

EDIT: Be clear I'm not completely against transporters I just think they have been over used, and often get in the way of more interesting possibilities.
If I did keep transporters, I'd ditch the dematerialization angle and make them wormhole-based. That would be simpler, more plausible (to a degree), and closer to how they're generally depicted as working anyway.
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Old April 26 2015, 07:55 PM   #3
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.
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Old April 26 2015, 08:13 PM   #4
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Baggage hmm that's a hard one, I personally like the transporter/holodeck a lot. Maybe the borg? Love the borg but I get a little tired of them after voyager and want a new bad guy race. Their stories with 7 of 9 became baggage to me after a while. Wouldn't mind if they showed up in JJ's trek but I also kind of want a new enemy.

But I pretty much enjoy the new movies and there's not much in them that I'd want filtered out from the old shows. If anything I want them to use more of the old stuff.
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Old April 26 2015, 08:21 PM   #5
Christopher
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.
But that's what fans do. That's called engaging critically with the work rather than just being a passive sponge. Most creators would rather have their audiences be engaged to think about the work, ask questions, and give constructive feedback. If your audience has no opinions about your work other than passive acceptance, that's something most creators would see as a failure.
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Old April 26 2015, 08:28 PM   #6
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But that's what fans do.
I just remember people saying "We're going to boycott Wrath of Khan if Spock dies".
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Old April 26 2015, 08:33 PM   #7
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.
Me too, and I wish that said 'fans' would find something else to be a fan of.
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Old April 26 2015, 08:45 PM   #8
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

I think the holodeck has its use. I think of the training/education of physicians or medical staff. Training with holograms could be more realistic than with dummies.

There is a lot Christopher mentioned, I support unconditionally. I would throw overboard stereotypes that still exist (people of German origin all being tall, blond with blue eyes for instance). I have a friend from Egypt. He is a christian, having a biblical first name. Some people think he is Muslim like the majority. He always has to explain himself, refering to his biblical name.

I appreciate the multicultural approach aboard Titan. It is what fascinated me about it in the first place, even though I had my problems with picturing some of the aliens.

As to psi powers: Kes with her developing psi powers scared me sometimes. And her MU counterpart with uncontrolled abilities all the more.
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Old April 26 2015, 08:59 PM   #9
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

I agree that the Holodeck has its uses; Hollow Pursuits is an excellent episode that uses and explores the implications of a device like that.
In other episodes it was used to recreate a "crime scene" such as in "Identity Crisis" which is also an excelent use of the device as are "farewell messages" like Tasha's of Jack Crusher's.

However I don't need episodes like "The Big Goodbye" or a "Fistful of Datas" (or Janeway's holonovel) where the characters just LARP a story from an entirely different genre.
If I wanted to see Victorian Gothic, a hardboiled Detective story or a Western I would watch or read something from those genres. When I watch Star Trek I want spaceships and aliens, so don't replace my spaceships and aliens with Picard's shitty private detective fanfic.

Other than that I can't really say I want Star Trek to be completely rid of any of it's "baggage" I love the complex and rich shared universe that has been built over the movies and shows.

And if you want Star Trek without baggage then you are in luck as well, the Abramsverse is prety much Star Trek without it's "baggage".
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Old April 26 2015, 09:06 PM   #10
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Dixon Hill, Flodder or Captain Proton are questionable. Some of the episodes sucked, others were entertaining. But I don´t need that to be overused. You could use the holodeck for your daily workouts, including swimming in an olympic sized pool or riding a horse, which you can´t normally do aboard a starship. I appreciate Picards fondness of books. Of real ones made of paper, no data padds, ebooks etc...... Holodecks have one disadvantage: you can get addicted (like Barclay).
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Old April 26 2015, 09:07 PM   #11
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.
Ain't that the truth.

As for baggage I'd love for them to get rid of:

- "No money."
- Acting like sanctimonious assholes when talking about, or even to, people from the past.
- Section 31.
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Old April 26 2015, 09:12 PM   #12
Kilana2
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.
Ain't that the truth.

As for baggage I'd love for them to get rid of:

- "No money."
- Acting like sanctimonious assholes when talking about, or even to, people from the past.
- Section 31.
I´m not a friend of Section 31 either, but I´m curious about how Bashir and Douglas will fight it. I don´t know how they will accomplish that, thought. Fact is, this organization exists without admitting to do. It reeks of Machiavellism.
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Old April 26 2015, 09:18 PM   #13
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Almost forgot: The Borg Queen.

In fact I wouldn't half mind if they got rid of the concept of 'assimilation' as well. Of people, anyway. Let the Borg be what they were in "Q Who": Interested ONLY in technology.

And speaking of Q? Get rid of them too.
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Old April 26 2015, 09:20 PM   #14
Christopher
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
But that's what fans do.
I just remember people saying "We're going to boycott Wrath of Khan if Spock dies".
That has nothing to do with this conversation, though. The extremism of a few does not discredit the more moderate and reasonable majority. Intelligent engagement and critique does not equal kneejerk denunciation. There are always going to be people who use fandom as an excuse for bitterness and hostility, but we shouldn't let them ruin the conversation for the rest of us.



Orphalesion wrote: View Post
However I don't need episodes like "The Big Goodbye" or a "Fistful of Datas" (or Janeway's holonovel) where the characters just LARP a story from an entirely different genre.
Maybe we don't, but unfortunately, the shows did, for the same reason that TOS needed improbable Earth-duplicate gangster planets and Nazi planets and Roman planets: to save money by reusing existing props, sets, and costumes from period productions. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have had any of these things, but commercial television is a realm of compromises, not ideals.

One could try to discard that baggage in a new production, but we'd probably end up with new baggage, like a galaxy where every planet looks like the woods around Vancouver.


And if you want Star Trek without baggage then you are in luck as well, the Abramsverse is prety much Star Trek without it's "baggage".
It should've been, but it isn't really. Into Darkness in particular is laden with baggage left over from the Prime universe. Though hopefully Beyond will be able to shake free of it.
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Old April 26 2015, 09:28 PM   #15
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Re: Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

As for baggage I'd love for them to get rid of:

- Acting like sanctimonious assholes when talking about, or even to, people from the past.

Could you please elaborate on that?
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