Questions for Bring Back Janeway Panel

[Tidus79001]

Kirsten Beyer wrote:

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Continuing with Melissa Davis's questions...

I think it's a fair point to suggest that death should not be taken lightly in any universe of stories, including Trek. Because science fiction in particular offers so many possible ways to avoid or undo it, it has become expected that characters who die don't stay dead forever. So death becomes a cheap story gimmick rather than something anyone should take too seriously.

How much that affects the audience's enjoyment of these stories is completely subjective. Most people don't tune in each week to a series expecting to see any of the main characters die at the end. Willing suspension of disbelief aside, we live in a world where most people who watch TV understand that the actors who perform their roles are under contract and when there are contract issues that might result in imminent character death, it's usually reported long before an episode featuring such a thing can hapen so there's this odd thing taking you out of the story when you know it really wasn't about the story but about a real world thing that now has results in a story.

So, no matter how dire circumstances become in any given story you're just looking for the solution that is going to fix it because on some level you know they have to fix it, otherwise there's no episode the following week. And honestly, for a lot of people, that is the fun. They don't want radical changes because they like the show the way it is and they get their enjoyment out of just how cool the solution is, not whether or not there will be a solution.

But I'll never get my first experience of watching Star Trek II, Wrath of Khan out of my head. It truly was a defining moment for me as a consumer of stories. I was twelve. I'd seen all of the Original Series by that point, and the first movie and loved Spock like everyone else. And even when Kirk was standing there in engineering and Spock was on the other side of that wall I was screaming inside that he just couldn't be dying. And then he was dead. And I was completely destroyed. I was too young to understand that Nimoy had requested this, or that the next movie could bring him back. I seriously believed that was it. I wasn't angry at the people who made the movie for killing Spock. I was just blown away that it could happen, and did, right before my eyes. It made me feel part of the story in a way nothing else I'd ever seen before ever had. It told me how much I actually cared about the characters. Yes, I was sad, but I was also amazed and impressed that such a huge thing could happen and I was there to see it. What twelve year old me couldn't have said then, but I understand now, was that I was impressed by the bravery of the idea. That was a big storytelling risk to take, and because it moved me so, I loved it.

And then Star Trek III came along and immediately took it back and I couldn't have been less interested. Nothing involving Spock for me, to this day, has ever had the same impact, or seemed quite as brave. I get why the did it. I get what it does to movie sales and the ongoing stories and all that to have Spock gone. But part of me was the littlest bit pissed. I mean, why did they put me through all of that if they didn't mean it? If they were just going to take it back in the next movie? I felt played and as an audience member, I didn't like it.

So, I guess, more than the "it has all been done before" thing, I feel like, for me, if I'm the one telling a story about a character dying...we're going to tell that story. I can't treat it as a game or as a gimmick for the readers. It's got to be what Star Trek II was for me...utterly mind blowing I can't believe they just did that and now what the hell am I going to do...kind of thing. Not just..oh, well, she'll be back eventually..what shall we watch in the meantime?

And if she were to be brought back, it also has to be...utterly mind blowing I can't believe they're just did that and now what the hell is going to happen next. There has to be an in story reason that is so compelling that things just can't happen any other way. This is what I mean by the story demanding Janeway's return. We can snap Q's fingers and she's back. But what's the point of that? Yes, we have Janeway back, but we've lost the respect of everyone who has been along for the ride, unless that compelling story reason satisfies the readers that we weren't just jerking people's chains the whole time.

The fact of bringing her back cheapens nothing. And adds nothing. It's all about the execution. The fact that it's all been done before just makes the execution issue infinitely more complicated. But hard can be good. Just because it's hard, that's also not a reason not to do it.

As to entertaining vs. lessons...I don't know. I tend to agree with Aaron Sorkin on this one...as said through his character Tabitha Fortis (I think that was her name) in the episode of West Wing, "The U.S. Poet Laureate"..."My job..is to hold your attention for as long as I've asked for it. If we stumble into truth, we got lucky." So first, I guess we entertain. For me the best lessons in Trek don't really involve any one character. They're more how issues we are struggling with as humanity are presented allegorically or symbolically in the stories and then possible resolutions are brought forth. Janeway dying certainly wasn't meant to teach anyone a lesson. But showing how people who loved her deal with death...I hope there are lessons there. I know that what little I know of death and what comes after is there on the page and if anyone can make use of it in their own lives...well I guess I got lucky.

KB

So what you are saying is because you didn't like something at 12 years old that colorized your perceptions on beloved characters deaths in Star Trek then we should all be subjected to you ignoring the majority of fans who want that beloved character back. It's your way, or the highway is it?

It is natural for when a someone die who we cared about to want that person back. What person wouldn't eagerly accept the return of a important person from beyond the grave in their life if they had the chance?

[Tidus79001]

BillJ wrote:

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This is utter bullshit. I'm tired of the Janeway clan acting like they speak for every Voyager fan out there.

Get over yourself. I never have claimed at any point to speak for every Voyager fan. However from what I have seen the greater majority of Voyager fans here on the TrekBBS seem to want her back (look at the poll & read the posts).

It is the small majority like you who get loud, vocal & launch attacks at fans who make it known that want her back.

BillJ wrote:

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The only reason I'd ever entertain the "should she?" come back question is because of the incredible writing talent of Kirsten Beyer. If I get a whiff of Janeway coming back with any other writer at the helm, I'll drop the relaunch like a hot potato and may still even with Beyer if I get some implausible resurrection.

I honestly can't fathom how people can't enjoy the new dynamics presented by Beyer. I get that your a fan, but at some point you just have to let go of a fictional character. It's not like her death in Before Dishonor erased her from the seven seasons that the show ran or the multiple novels she did appear in or the comics she appeared in.

The character died the way she lived... larger than life. And to paraphrase Guinan, "I can let her go".

As in all things... your mileage may vary.

I have already responded to this type of threat once before. No since in typing that response up again. Lets take a look shall we?

Tidus79001 wrote:

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Why do you feel so threatened by Janeway that you would want to deny her fans of her return?

There are a great number of Voyager fans out there & they like Voyager the way that it was. Non Voyager fans should quit expecting Voyager to be completely re-worked so that it is to their liking. If you don't like it go read the other Star Trek novel like you threatened to do & leave the rest of us to enjoy Voyager in peace.

Well we certainly won't miss you. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Next!

[kimc]

^ Okay, folks. Let's either keep it civil or take it out of here. This thread is supposed to be a place to address questions for the Janeway panel - not a place for fans and non-fans of Janeway to take potshots at each other. Settle it via pm or put each other on ignore...

[Galekarens]

Just a quick response to those who say, more or less, why can't Janeway fans just "enjoy" the "Voy" novels the way they are now, well, the simple answer is: we just don't want to, without Janeway, the larger than life, irreplacable, unique, iconic role-model that she is. The books are not Voyager without her, they are missing something, they are not what we want to read, not the real thing, not very enjoyable. And, before you say, well, too bad, change your mind, if Pocket Books can more or less answer the question of why not bring Kathryn Janeway back with, more or less "We don't want to," or author(s) can say they pretty much don't want to, then KJ's fans have the right to say the same thing. Or does one class of fans (ie, those who agree w/ what Pocket Books is publishing) have more privileges than others. Having the power to do (or not do) something doesn't makes one better, it just gives you control. And that really shouldn't mean in Trek that you can give hurt to others and not be too concerned with it, but unfortunately that might be the case now, bring Janeway back, we know she lives!

[BillJ]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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So what you are saying is because you didn't like something at 12 years old that colorized your perceptions on beloved characters deaths in Star Trek then we should all be subjected to you ignoring the majority of fans who want that beloved character back. It's your way, or the highway is it?

No. She's saying that as a viewer and a reader she doesn't like to be jerked around. And as a writer she doesn't believe in jerking her readers around. You'd get that if you actually understood what was written instead of trying to subvert her words to fit your personal world view.

Tidus79001 wrote:

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Why do you feel so threatened by Janeway that you would want to deny her fans of her return?

There are a great number of Voyager fans out there & they like Voyager the way that it was. Non Voyager fans should quit expecting Voyager to be completely re-worked so that it is to their liking. If you don't like it go read the other Star Trek novel like you threatened to do & leave the rest of us to enjoy Voyager in peace.

Whose threatened? I, like many, have said they would sample any books that return Janeway. But we accept and enjoy the current direction. No one has threatened to go to their rooms and hold their breath til they turn blue over the issue.

It seems to me that the Janeway brigade is galled that the books are moving forward in a successful manner without Janeway. To me, that's just flat petty.

kimc wrote:

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^ Okay, folks. Let's either keep it civil or take it out of here. This thread is supposed to be a place to address questions for the Janeway panel - not a place for fans and non-fans of Janeway to take potshots at each other.

Why are you framing this as 'fans' vs. 'non-fans' of Janeway? That is the furthest thing from the truth. It's about people disagreeing over a simple story direction. The problem is one side seems far more agitated over the direction than the other.

[Tidus79001]

BillJ wrote:

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No. She's saying that as a viewer and a reader she doesn't like to be jerked around. And as a writer she doesn't believe in jerking her readers around. You'd get that if you actually understood what was written instead of trying to subvert her words to fit your personal world view.

BillJ I am not subveting anyone's words & from your reply it seems as if you are trying to subvert & twist my words.

Your logic works too ways. Let’s explore how shall we? How isn’t it jerking readers around by replacing Janeway with a faceless replacement & when the majority of the readers want her returned we are told to get used to the changes?

[QUOTE=BillJ;5101964]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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Why do you feel so threatened by Janeway that you would want to deny her fans of her return?

There are a great number of Voyager fans out there & they like Voyager the way that it was. Non Voyager fans should quit expecting Voyager to be completely re-worked so that it is to their liking. If you don't like it go read the other Star Trek novel like you threatened to do & leave the rest of us to enjoy Voyager in peace.

Whose threatened? I, like many, have said they would sample any books that return Janeway. But we accept and enjoy the current direction. No one has threatened to go to their rooms and hold their breath til they turn blue over the issue.

It seems to me that the Janeway brigade is galled that the books are moving forward in a successful manner without Janeway. To me, that's just flat petty.

Actually you exactly said:

BillJ wrote:

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If I get a whiff of Janeway coming back with any other writer at the helm, I'll drop the relaunch like a hot potato and may still even with Beyer if I get some implausible resurrection..

Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like:

BillJ wrote:

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Whose threatened? I, like many, have said they would sample any books that return Janeway. But we accept and enjoy the current direction. No one has threatened to go to their rooms and hold their breath til they turn blue over the issue.

Oh sorry to point that you are backpedaling & your trying to change what you actually said about dropping the relaunch like a hot potato if you even got a whiff of Janeway coming back & and maybe still even with Beyer if you get some implausible resurrection

*OH, SNAP!* [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ADMINI%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

kimc wrote:

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^ Okay, folks. Let's either keep it civil or take it out of here. This thread is supposed to be a place to address questions for the Janeway panel - not a place for fans and non-fans of Janeway to take potshots at each other.

Kimc I never attacked anyone. It is BillJ who replied to my post saying that it was BS, then in a subsequent post he accused me of trying to subvert the words of Kristen Beyer.

BillJ wrote:

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Why are you framing this as 'fans' vs. 'non-fans' of Janeway? That is the furthest thing from the truth. It's about people disagreeing over a simple story direction. The problem is one side seems far more agitated over the direction than the other.

It is you who keeps making angry attacks personal attacks at me.

[Tidus79001]

BillJ wrote:

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No. She's saying that as a viewer and a reader she doesn't like to be jerked around. And as a writer she doesn't believe in jerking her readers around. You'd get that if you actually understood what was written instead of trying to subvert her words to fit your personal world view.

BillJ I am not subveting anyone's words & from your reply it seems as if you are trying to subvert & twist my words.

Your logic works too ways. Let’s explore how shall we? How isn’t it jerking readers around by replacing Janeway with a faceless replacement & when the majority of the readers want her returned we are told to get used to the changes?

BillJ wrote:

---

Whose threatened? I, like many, have said they would sample any books that return Janeway. But we accept and enjoy the current direction. No one has threatened to go to their rooms and hold their breath til they turn blue over the issue.

It seems to me that the Janeway brigade is galled that the books are moving forward in a successful manner without Janeway. To me, that's just flat petty.

Actually you exactly said:

BillJ wrote:

---

If I get a whiff of Janeway coming back with any other writer at the helm, I'll drop the relaunch like a hot potato and may still even with Beyer if I get some implausible resurrection..

Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like:

BillJ wrote:

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Whose threatened? I, like many, have said they would sample any books that return Janeway. But we accept and enjoy the current direction. No one has threatened to go to their rooms and hold their breath til they turn blue over the issue.

Oh sorry to point that you are backpedaling & your trying to change what you actually said about dropping the relaunch like a hot potato if you even got a whiff of Janeway coming back & and maybe still even with Beyer if you get some implausible resurrection.

*OH, SNAP!*

kimc wrote:

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^ Okay, folks. Let's either keep it civil or take it out of here. This thread is supposed to be a place to address questions for the Janeway panel - not a place for fans and non-fans of Janeway to take potshots at each other.

Kimc I never attacked anyone. It is BillJ who replied to my post saying that it was BS, then in a subsequent post he accused me of trying to subvert the words of Kristen Beyer, and called me petty.

BillJ wrote:

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Why are you framing this as 'fans' vs. 'non-fans' of Janeway? That is the furthest thing from the truth. It's about people disagreeing over a simple story direction. The problem is one side seems far more agitated over the direction than the other.

Yeah that would be your side. I haven't made any attack on you at all & you have made 3 attacks on me as I pointed out above in my reply to Kimc. It is you who keeps making angry attacks personal attacks at me. Sorry BillJ I don't back down to bullies. All that I can say about your attacks on me is that when people start to attack you know you are being effective!

[BillJ]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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BillJ I am not subveting anyone's words & from your reply it seems as if you are trying to subvert & twist my words.

Your logic works too ways. Let’s explore how shall we? How isn’t it jerking readers around by replacing Janeway with a faceless replacement & when the majority of the readers want her returned we are told to get used to the changes?


Actually you exactly said:

Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like:


Oh sorry to point that you are backpedaling & your trying to change what you actually said about dropping the relaunch like a hot potato if you even got a whiff of Janeway coming back & and maybe still even with Beyer if you get some implausible resurrection.

*OH, SNAP!*

Kimc I never attacked anyone. It is BillJ who replied to my post saying that it was BS, then in a subsequent post he accused me of trying to subvert the words of Kristen Beyer, and called me petty.

Yeah that would be your side. I haven't made any attack on you at all & you have made 3 attacks on me as I pointed out above in my reply to Kimc. It is you who keeps making angry attacks personal attacks at me. Sorry BillJ I don't back down to bullies. All that I can say about your attacks on me is that when people start to attack you know you are being effective!

I called bullshit on this remark:

The only people wrestling with the “should she” be brought back question is the editors & possibly yourself.

If this isn't your remark then I apologize, if it is yours then it is bullshit.

If you call those attacks then your far more thin-skinned than I originally gave you credit for.

There is no contradiction in my thoughts on whether Janeway comes back or not. Kirsten Beyer is one of the few authors that actually get Janeway, even with that I won't accept the Q snap their fingers and everything goes back to normal. Just like I was disappointed with Spock's return and Kirk's return in the novels. There is no good way to turn back death. I'm not one to be so mesmerized by a fictional character that I throw all logic out the window. And I'll always know in the back of my mind that I was cheated out of new dynamics and new character growth to satisfy a few people. I like the fact that Voyager like the Enterprise now feels like a ship with a 'living' history. YMMV.

[Tidus79001]

[QUOTE=BillJ;5102256][QUOTE=Tidus79001;5102164]

BillJ wrote:

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I called bullshit on this remark:

If this isn't your remark then I apologize, if it is yours then it is bullshit.

If you call those attacks then your far more thin-skinned than I originally gave you credit for.

There is no contradiction in my thoughts on whether Janeway comes back or not. Kirsten Beyer is one of the few authors that actually get Janeway, even with that I won't accept the Q snap their fingers and everything goes back to normal. Just like I was disappointed with Spock's return and Kirk's return in the novels. There is no good way to turn back death. I'm not one to be so mesmerized by a fictional character that I throw all logic out the window. And I'll always know in the back of my mind that I was cheated out of new dynamics and new character growth to satisfy a few people. I like the fact that Voyager like the Enterprise now feels like a ship with a 'living' history. YMMV.

*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*. Now you are going in circles & rehashing the same attacks. *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*. Oh wait you did find another personal attack when you said:

BillJ wrote:

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If you call those attacks then your far more thin-skinned than I originally gave you credit for.

That makes 4! Kimc also thought those were personal attack as evidenced by his response to your first post when you attacked me. Let's refresh your memory on that shall we?

kimc wrote:

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^ Okay, folks. Let's either keep it civil or take it out of here. This thread is supposed to be a place to address questions for the Janeway panel - not a place for fans and non-fans of Janeway to take potshots at each other. Settle it via pm or put each other on ignore...

Now that we have the cleared up let's examine this new attack you made on me. I am thin skinned? I think not. I am not the one making personal attacks, nor am I getting up upset over what someone else posted. I prefer interesting, useful, and constructive dialogue.

*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Someone wake me up when BillJ actually has something interesting, useful, and constructive to dialogue about.

[BillJ]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*. Now you going in circles & rehashing the same attacks. *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*. I am thin skinned? I think not. I am not the one making personal attacks, nor am I getting up upset over what someone else posted. I prefer interesting, useful, and constructive dialog.

*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*
Someone wake me up when BillJ actually has something interesting, useful, and constructive to dialog about.

[Tidus79001]

BillJ wrote:

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*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Wow that was creative. Nothing witty to say? *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Still asleep here *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

[BillJ]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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*Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Wow that was creative. Nothing witty to say? *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* Still asleep here *Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Sometimes you just have to bow to the absurdity of a given situation.

[Tidus79001]

BillJ wrote:

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Sometimes you just have to bow to the absurdity of a given situation.

I have nothing personal against you BillJ. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the topic/issue of the return of Janeway. *Peace man*

[BillJ]

Tidus79001 wrote:

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I have nothing personal against you BillJ. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the topic/issue of the return of Janeway. *Peace man*

It's all in good fun.

We all could probably come up with a plan to cure world hunger with all the time we've spent arguing over Janeway.

[Tidus79001]

"The Return of Janway" it sounds like a title for a 1950's b creature feature/horror movie.

Maybe it could be another Captain Proton adventure