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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 29 2011, 02:29 AM   #331
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
How do you feel about Picard refusing to use Hugh to carry the virus to attack the Borg from within? Was it worth the death of 60 billion Federation, Klingon and other races? Not counting all those in the rest of the galaxy in the intervening years.

Just because Picard found individuality on one Borg, he left the rest of the Collective to kill and assimilate how many?

At least Picard could sleep at night knowing Hugh retained some individuality.
Not only would it have been genocide to use the virus on Hugh, there was no guarantee it would even WORK.
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Old December 29 2011, 02:32 AM   #332
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
We don't know that Hugh was a no win situation since Picard didn't even try.
The Kobayshi Maru is supposedly unwinnable because it doesn't matter whether you choose to save the stranded passengers (and get attacked/killed by Romulans for crossing the Neutral Zone, or at least cause intergalactic war for daring to cross it) or ignore the passengers and let them die, you'll have failed morally.

Infecting or not infecting Hugh has disastrous effects for thousands of innocent beings, no matter which side you decide to take.

Janeway either loses two beloved crewman or she kills Tuvix.

I see no difference. These are all no-win scenarios. You don't have to try a solution to realise that neither side is a victory.
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Old December 29 2011, 02:36 AM   #333
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

And there's no guarantee that it wouldn't. Why are you opposed to even trying? Can the Federation do nothing against the Borg unless they are 100% sure that it will be successful? "Don't try to stop that cube from assimilating Earth. We don't know for sure that it'll work. And we don't want to kill the drones because Hugh showed us that it's possible they can be removed from the collective. Stand down everyone."

Yeah, that's a good strategy.
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Old December 29 2011, 03:01 AM   #334
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I remember this being a goofy fun book, I read it in Sept of 2008 when i had my new condo in Bel Air and was managing a kitchen up there. After 12 hours of hell a day, it was a super nice escape, but some of bs like eating pluto, top brass gambling, and the strange actions of characters gave me quite a few what the hell, and come on moments. I also had to re-read some passages to see if i had missed something as i recall some things not adding up correctly. Eh, it was okay i suppose. Two popcorns. I wish that Janeway would have died in a Voyager book however, that seemed wrong.
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Old December 29 2011, 03:07 AM   #335
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

TenLubak wrote: View Post
I wish that Janeway would have died in a Voyager book.
Well, she does. Halfway through "Full Circle".
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Old December 29 2011, 03:10 AM   #336
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

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And there's no guarantee that it wouldn't. Why are you opposed to even trying?
If you know you're about to commit genocide on the Borg, and you go ahead with it, you can't suddenly turn back. And you have lost your morality - by doing what your enemy has been doing.
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Old December 29 2011, 03:17 AM   #337
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Yes, much better to let the Borg assimilate and/or kill everyone. The Borg won't stop if you kill 10%, 25% even 50% of them. They'll keep fighting until they are all dead. Don't think of them as an army, think of them as an anthill. Or a lightning storm. You can stop most of the bolts but some are still going to start forest fires or hit people or your house.

The only way to stop the Borg is to stop them ALL. Do you have time to figure out how to do that when the cubes are popping throught the Azure Nebula every 30 seconds? Give me something that can stop them without out killing them and I'll use it. Lacking that, I'd settle for something that kills them all instead.

They started this long before they met humanity. If we have the chance to stop them we should take it. Worrying about how we feel about it is something we can concern ourself with after our loved ones are safe.
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Old December 29 2011, 03:26 AM   #338
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
The only way to stop the Borg is to stop them ALL. Do you have time to figure out how to do that when the cubes are popping throught the Azure Nebula every 30 seconds? Give me something that can stop them without out killing them and I'll use it. Lacking that, I'd settle for something that kills them all instead.
Her on-going mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before.
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Old December 29 2011, 03:34 AM   #339
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Yup, and if they encouter a life form that is openly hostile towards all sentient life that doesn't mean not defending themselves.

Why do you think there's General Order 24? Why have an order authorizing such an action if you never intend to use it? That's not to say it will be used all the time but even a Captain cas order the destruction of all life on a planet without authorization from Starfleet.
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Old December 29 2011, 04:24 AM   #340
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

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even a Captain cas order the destruction of all life on a planet without authorization from Starfleet.
That's not the kind of stuff I want from watching Star Trek.
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Old December 29 2011, 04:43 AM   #341
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
The only way to stop the Borg is to stop them ALL.
The fundamental misconception there is defining the Borg as "them," as if the Collective were a race of beings. It isn't. It's a single core consciousness that holds billions of individuals captive as its slaves. You don't defeat an enslaving, tyrannical force by killing off its slaves, but by liberating them. That's what Picard did for Hugh and the other drones in his cube, it's what Janeway did for Seven and other drones in "Survival Instinct," "Collective," and "Unimatrix Zero," and it's what the Caeliar ultimately did for all the Borg. Which pretty much makes it a proven success as a tactic.
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Old December 29 2011, 05:21 AM   #342
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^ Exactly. Individuality is a far more devastating (and at the same time humane) weapon than the virus ever could be. And unlike the virus, it's guaranteed to work.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The Kobayshi Maru is supposedly unwinnable because it doesn't matter whether you choose to save the stranded passengers (and get attacked/killed by Romulans for crossing the Neutral Zone, or at least cause intergalactic war for daring to cross it) or ignore the passengers and let them die, you'll have failed morally.
Not necessarily...

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Old December 29 2011, 05:50 AM   #343
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
even a Captain cas order the destruction of all life on a planet without authorization from Starfleet.
That's not the kind of stuff I want from watching Star Trek.
I think this is another important thing people forget to do when they get into these kinds of discussions. They don't think about how what they are talking about would relate to the themes and message of the franchise. The kinds of things you're talking about, and the things that S31 does, pretty much go completely against the whole concept of the entire Star Trek franchise.
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Old December 29 2011, 11:26 AM   #344
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

In 'I, borg', Picard had a choice:
- either use the virus (and Hugh) and stop the collective (Picard&co were pretty sure the virus will work in the episode - that was the subjective position they were operating on; what was not clearly established was whether the virus would actiually kill the drones or merely dismantle the hive mind)
- or don't use the virus and condemn to death the billions upon billions the borg will kill and assimilate.
In other words, there was no morally 'white' solution.

But Picard&co would be in a clear state of self-defense (or state of necessity, if you consider the borg as not sentient, not endowed with free will, etc) when acting to stop the borg.
BTW, if, hypothetically, a being who could not control his actions attacked you (or another person) and you killed her in defense, you acted in a state of necessity.

Picard choose no to use the virus against the borg, condemning billions - enitre species, whole civilisations - to death.
By acting thus, Picard became responsible, too, for the death of all the billions the borg killed between 'I, borg' and 'destiny', because he could have stopped all that horror and didn't, knowing what would happen.

But as long as he didn't have to see all the billions dying, as long as he could say that they're not his problem, he could look in the mirror and not see all the blood staining his hands, he could pretend he's the morally white knight in shining armor.


Similarly, in 'Endgame', Janeway had to choose between two options:
- either destroy the transwarp hub, immobilising the borg for, at most, a few years (at most because the borg, with unlimited man-power, could rebuild the transwarp hub; or it could build slip-stream ships; etc), after which time the federation was to be destroyed by the borg (the federation having no chance in hell of stopping even a smallish borg attack - as seen in 'destiny')
- or don't destroy the transwarp hub, keeping the federation a low priority target for the borg, the borg concentrating on other species.

In other words, Janeway had the choice between her peeople and stangers - another situation in which there was no morally 'white' option.
Janeway chose to sacrifice her own people, federation citizens she was sworn to protect - thus betraying her oath as a starfleet officer, to be loyal to the federation.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
That's not the kind of stuff I want from watching Star Trek.
Too late for that - Picard&Janeway already did such 'stuff', in the above mentioned episodes (and others).
You just didn't get to see the billions who did the dying - it happened off-screen (until 'destiny', anyway).

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 29 2011 at 12:07 PM.
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Old December 29 2011, 05:42 PM   #345
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^ No, I completely disagree that the virus was the only way to fight the Borg. As I said, there was no guarantee that it would work. Picard and crew were never certain that it would, and it was clear that the virus was only a last-ditch effort. At the end, Picard reasoned that giving Hugh back to the collective and letting his individuality spread would be a far more potent weapon - and he was right, as it turned out.

Plus, he did not have to commit flat-out genocide to do it. Would you have advocated the successful use of the Section 31 virus to exterminate the Founders during the Dominion War? Do you believe that the blood of all those killed during the war are the Federation's responsibility because they did not use it? Or, to use more current analogies, do you think the Allies should have carpetbombed Germany with nukes during WW II? There are certain lines you just don't cross - certain rules that are absolutely inviolable. This is one of those times.

The decision to not use genocidal methods during wartime does not mean that the subsequent casualties are your fault. It means that you kept your principles intact.
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