RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,875
Posts: 5,222,008
Members: 24,229
Currently online: 749
Newest member: ElimGarak.93-99

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 28 2011, 06:50 AM   #316
Brikar99
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Sci wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
Their legitimacy still dervies from the Federation Charter.
No, it does not.

Sloan in "Inquisition" said that Section 31 was "part of the original Starfleet Charter." We hear Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter in ENT's "Divergence:" All it says is that regulations may be bent in times of crisis. Nothing about that establishes the existence of a permanent organization that is above the law in all circumstances.

Naming themselves after Article 14, Section 31 of a defunct charter is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to give legal cover for a plainly illegal organization. It would never hold up in court.
What do we think of the scene when Sisko said that Starfleet claimed to be appalled at the idea of Section 31... but then swept the investigation under the rug?
__________________
SNW 9: 'Mestral' - 'Ninja Werewolf Assassins!' - Movie/TV reviews: For Reelz
Brikar99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 08:30 AM   #317
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

It's nothing the current United States government doesn't essentially do...just look at how much we've learned from our recent financial failures. Historically it's much easier to verbally express a moral stance than to take action upholding said stance, especially when not doing so will ultimately serve your purposes.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 11:03 AM   #318
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Brikar99 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
Their legitimacy still dervies from the Federation Charter.
No, it does not.

Sloan in "Inquisition" said that Section 31 was "part of the original Starfleet Charter." We hear Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter in ENT's "Divergence:" All it says is that regulations may be bent in times of crisis. Nothing about that establishes the existence of a permanent organization that is above the law in all circumstances.

Naming themselves after Article 14, Section 31 of a defunct charter is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to give legal cover for a plainly illegal organization. It would never hold up in court.
What do we think of the scene when Sisko said that Starfleet claimed to be appalled at the idea of Section 31... but then swept the investigation under the rug?
It means that one or more of the members of the conspiracy is probably in the admiralty and used their position to kill the investigation. One might compare it to the way Nixon tried to kill the investigation into Watergate -- an indication that the criminals are powerful, not that there was no crime.

DonIago wrote: View Post
It's nothing the current United States government doesn't essentially do...just look at how much we've learned from our recent financial failures. Historically it's much easier to verbally express a moral stance than to take action upholding said stance, especially when not doing so will ultimately serve your purposes.
Exactly.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 05:02 PM   #319
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

No matter how good the intentions of the people who created 31 were, the organization crossed the line from possibly being just misguided people with good intentions to outright bad guys the moment they attempted to commit genocide. I don't care what kind justification you use, there is no way you could convince me that was justified.
__________________
Over the course of many encounters and many years, I have successfully developed a standard operating procedure for dealing with big, nasty monsters. Run away. Me and Monty Python.
Harry Dresden - Blood Rites (The Dresden Files #6)
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 05:11 PM   #320
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^Yup. Like Picard said in "The Drumhead," we must be ever vigilant in order to hold onto our morals. Any group without oversight and answerability will not remain moral indefinitely. If it answers to no one but itself, eventually its overriding priority will be justifying and protecting its own self-interest, no matter who else has to suffer.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 09:46 PM   #321
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Is there a plan to tell the story (in novels of course) of the fall of Section 31? We know it happens, just not when or how.

And don't even try to tell me that's a "story idea" and therefore unusable.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 10:25 PM   #322
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Would Section 31 ever really fall? Wouldn't some concerned idiot just start it up again?
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 10:34 PM   #323
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Yup. Like Picard said in "The Drumhead," we must be ever vigilant in order to hold onto our morals. Any group without oversight and answerability will not remain moral indefinitely. If it answers to no one but itself, eventually its overriding priority will be justifying and protecting its own self-interest, no matter who else has to suffer.
Youe mean like when Sisko was working on bringing the Romulans into the Dominion War using falsified documents? (In the Pale Moonlight)

Do you think this was something that the Admiralty or the Federation was in favor of? is it something that they would support? Did Garak go too far by setting the bomb and implicating the Dominion or was he just a step or two ahead of where Sisko would be anyway?

What about the oversight of Picard, Ross, Nechayev, Paris, Jellico, Nakamura and Ambassador Serra in removing the democratically elected president of the Federation? Is that really the job of Starfleet, to decide who is and isn't the rightful leader of the Federation? Being forced to resign at gunpoint doesn't sound very free and open to me.

There were security reasons for keeping the reasons he left off secret but how do you justify 6 members of the military and an ambassador forcing out an elected official at gunpoint? It appears to me that Picard has changed his mind in the intervening years.

And what happens to the conspiritors? Well, a year later Jellico is CinC and Picard turns down a promotion to Admiral. Only Ross, the one who took part in the triple assassination even gets to resign. You'd think that Bacco could come up with something to charge him with while keeping the necessary parts secret. Just how much of a pension does a Starfleet admiral get anyway?

Let's not pretend that the Federations hands are lilly white all the time. They often do illegal things and even cover them up so that the perpatrators go unpunished. Picard can claim moral superiority when it suits him but he can be just as dirty as the rest of them.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 10:48 PM   #324
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Is there a plan to tell the story (in novels of course) of the fall of Section 31? We know it happens, just not when or how.

And don't even try to tell me that's a "story idea" and therefore unusable.
The Section 31 series had everyone, all the way back to Kirk, discovering the existence of Section 31 and vowing to bring them down. As far as we have seen, nothing has come of it.

Taking down Section 31 is like the War on Terror, or as Terry Jones of Monty Python said

"WHAT really alarms me about President Bush's "war on terrorism" is the grammar. How do you wage war on an abstract noun? It's rather like bombing murder.

Imagine if Bush had said: "We're going to bomb murder wherever it lurks. We are going to seek out the murderers and the would-be murderers, and bomb any government that harbors murderers."

The other thing that worries me about Bush and Blair's "war on terrorism" is: how will they know when they've won it? With most wars, you can say you've won when the other side is either all dead or surrenders. But how is terrorism going to surrender?"

How do you get an entire secret organization to surrender? Some of them can simply go underground and pop up again later.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 11:10 PM   #325
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Would Section 31 ever really fall? Wouldn't some concerned idiot just start it up again?
Heck, I think that's the only way it's managed to exist as long as it has. The idea of a vast conspiracy staying secret for generations is as fanciful as psychic powers or time travel, a fictional conceit or paranoid delusion that doesn't wash in the real world. The larger a conspiracy gets, the more lines of communication it has that can be intercepted and the more opportunities there are for its members to make mistakes that will compromise its secrecy. And the more people it has, the more likely it is that some of them will have second thoughts and decide to reveal what they know. And it couldn't last generations without new people coming in and replacing the old, and who's to say they'd share their predecessors' views or commitments? Sooner or later, something's got to give. Not to mention that in a democratic state with a free press, there are going to be a lot of people who have a vested interest in uprooting secrets and corruption, whether it's journalists seeking to make a name for themselves or politicians seeking to discredit their rivals.

So it's not credible that Section 31 is a large cabal that's managed to endure for centuries. It would have to be fairly small and not particularly active most of the time, and might even be a series of largely separate cabals that come and go. I can believe S31 being fairly active during the Dominion War or other times of great crisis, when certain people within Starfleet and the government might convince themselves it was necessary to tolerate their methods for the greater good (like Admiral Ross did). But in more peaceful and secure times, I don't think those same people would be as willing to look the other way, and S31 would pretty much have to suspend operations or dissolve outright during those periods.

Still, I'd like to think that eventually it would be exposed and its infrastructure dismantled to such a degree that there wouldn't be enough left of it to start up again. Eventually there might be some "concerned idiot" who'd try to organize a conspiracy like it, but it's not easy to pull off a successful conspiracy. It's unbelievable enough that S31 has managed to endure in any form for as long as it has, even intermittently. But assuming they have found some way of beating the odds and surviving as long as they have, even if they do so intermittently, it must be a tenuous survival at best, and it should be possible to break the streak eventually.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 28 2011, 11:40 PM   #326
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Would Section 31 ever really fall? Wouldn't some concerned idiot just start it up again?
Heck, I think that's the only way it's managed to exist as long as it has. The idea of a vast conspiracy staying secret for generations is as fanciful as psychic powers or time travel, a fictional conceit or paranoid delusion that doesn't wash in the real world. The larger a conspiracy gets, the more lines of communication it has that can be intercepted and the more opportunities there are for its members to make mistakes that will compromise its secrecy. And the more people it has, the more likely it is that some of them will have second thoughts and decide to reveal what they know. And it couldn't last generations without new people coming in and replacing the old, and who's to say they'd share their predecessors' views or commitments? Sooner or later, something's got to give. Not to mention that in a democratic state with a free press, there are going to be a lot of people who have a vested interest in uprooting secrets and corruption, whether it's journalists seeking to make a name for themselves or politicians seeking to discredit their rivals.
I agree that S31 should lay low most of the time. However, much like the Borg, they keep getting overused and some day someone will write the S31 version of Destiny, that is, taking them out of the game for good (or at least until someone decides to bring them back).

And I wouldn't worry too much about the Federation Press Corps figuring things out. Exactly ONE journalist figured out something had happened to Zif and his aides and they decided not to publish their findings. I think S31 is more likely to be brought down from within.

Which is too bad because, used sparingly, they could add a lot to a storyline. They've gotten to the point though that cries of "Section 31" pop up every time there's an evil Admiral or such.

Let's not forget that the Federation was close to losing the war and the Founders disease and the offer of a cure went a long way towards ending the war.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2011, 12:49 AM   #327
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^But the only reason that a cure was offered was because of Bashir and O'Brien, if they hadn't gotten the information then 31 would have just gone ahead let the virus run it's course. And like I said before, there is no justification for genocide, no matter what the reasons they have might be. IMO it's one of the very few black and white perspectives I can actually agree with.
__________________
Over the course of many encounters and many years, I have successfully developed a standard operating procedure for dealing with big, nasty monsters. Run away. Me and Monty Python.
Harry Dresden - Blood Rites (The Dresden Files #6)
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2011, 01:10 AM   #328
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

How do you feel about Picard refusing to use Hugh to carry the virus to attack the Borg from within? Was it worth the death of 60 billion Federation, Klingon and other races? Not counting all those in the rest of the galaxy in the intervening years.

Just because Picard found individuality on one Borg, he left the rest of the Collective to kill and assimilate how many?

At least Picard could sleep at night knowing Hugh retained some individuality.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2011, 01:19 AM   #329
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
How do you feel about Picard refusing to use Hugh
And that's the point of the no-win scenario: Kobayashi Maru, Hugh of Borg, Tuvix.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29 2011, 01:43 AM   #330
MattWallace
Lieutenant
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
How do you feel about Picard refusing to use Hugh
And that's the point of the no-win scenario: Kobayashi Maru, Hugh of Borg, Tuvix.
We don't know that Hugh was a no win situation since Picard didn't even try. He just decided that Hugh and the Borgs lives were worth more than the people they'd kill/assimilate.
MattWallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.