RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 147,737
Posts: 5,843,333
Members: 26,188
Currently online: 367
Newest member: Carpathia86

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Non Sequitur
By: Michelle Erica Green on Sep 4

Two The Next Generation Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Sep 4

September-October 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 4

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Sep 3

Star Trek Night At Fenway Park
By: T'Bonz on Sep 3

New Star Trek Merchandise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 2

Perth Mint Voyager Coins
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Face Off To Feature Trek Makeup
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Pegg Omaze Video Features Outtakes
By: T'Bonz on Sep 1

Vulcan Ale – The Genesis Effect
By: T'Bonz on Aug 31


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 25 2011, 09:19 AM   #286
Defcon
Rear Admiral
 
Defcon's Avatar
 
Location: Germany
View Defcon's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Thrawn wrote: View Post
I don't want to contribute any misinformation, so please don't quote me, but I want to say that it was Paramount (or CBS or whoever) that added in the out with Q, not PAD. Clark told him to kill her off, he did, but Paramount wanted the out put at the end of the novel in case they needed her back later.
FWIW That's exactly what I've read over the last few years.
Defcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25 2011, 09:21 AM   #287
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Peter David told me at a Vulcon convention that he didn't like the idea of killing Janeway, just like he didn't like the idea of killing Janos. However, he was asked to write the book and he knew if he didn't someone else would so he might as well be the one collecting a paycheck. I got the impression from him that Q taking Janeway was his idea, but I may have misunderstood. I do know he liked it ending that way because it allowed the possibility of her return.

He said he has received a lot of hate mail for killing Janeway and has told these angry fans that the decision was not his and that he wrote the possibility of her return. Apparently some individuals have written him some pretty venomous comments.
Metthias, Peter David is amazing. Like we have said in a conversation on another board, if it wasn't for him, we may not have been given a way out. David has been a favorite author of mine for novels and comics for years and he's famous for leaving ways out for characters to return from the grave. I know David has never been a big Voyager fan, but I know he doesn't hate Janeway either. I will never believe killing Janeway was a good idea. It's about as good of an idea as Star Wars killing Chewbacca....
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25 2011, 04:37 PM   #288
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Despite my problems with PAD's storytelling choices (to the point where I now boycott nearly everything he writes), he does write Q extremely well, probably because that character fits his absurdist concepts like a glove.
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2011, 03:32 AM   #289
Killandra
Lieutenant Commander
 
Killandra's Avatar
 
Location: Virginia
View Killandra's Twitter Profile Send a message via AIM to Killandra Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Killandra Send a message via Yahoo to Killandra
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Despite my problems with PAD's storytelling choices (to the point where I now boycott nearly everything he writes), he does write Q extremely well, probably because that character fits his absurdist concepts like a glove.
Yes, yes he does,lol. I sometimes wonder if he sometimes gets confused because he writes for so many titles!
__________________
"Listen to me very carefully because I'm only going to say this once. Coffee. Black."-Kathryn Janeway
Killandra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2011, 06:31 AM   #290
DGCatAniSiri
Captain
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Peter David told me at a Vulcon convention that he didn't like the idea of killing Janeway, just like he didn't like the idea of killing Janos.
He was told to remove Janos? I hadn't heard of that before. Was the reason why given?
DGCatAniSiri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2011, 09:04 AM   #291
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
He was told to remove Janos? I hadn't heard of that before. Was the reason why given?
When Janos first appeared, then-Viacom (or CBS) Consumer Products expressed concern about PAD's making mugatos sentient and capable of speech, and he was asked to remove specific references at the last minute, although the physical description could remain, leaving an in-joke Easter egg for TOS fans. But... one reference to his species was accidentally left behind in the galleys. It was then inferred that this creature was unique among his kind. Later, David Mack's Minipedia supplement to NF again confirmed that Janos was a mugato, and the artist on WildStorm's "Double Time" comic even slipped in a visual cameo of Janos on Excalibur's rec deck.

There was supposedly a request from on high that Janos be phased out of NF, and it was finally made specific that he was a mix of mugato, Caitian and other alien DNA, with only a physical resemblance to mugatos. As "Stone and Anvil" concluded, Janos was left with a herd of white, furry ape-like animals (ie. mugatos) on a planet called Neural: another Easter egg for TOS fans. Neural isn't a canonical planetary name, being only from the script of "A Private Little War", and reported in the "ST Concordance", but not from aired/canonical dialogue from the episode itself.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2011, 09:29 PM   #292
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Why would TPTB get such a weed up their asses about mugatos? This isn't the Arnold era, after all.
__________________
Sweet dreams are made of cheese
Who am I to diss a Brie?
I Cheddar the world and the Feta cheese
Everybody's looking for Stilton
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 12:03 AM   #293
Enterprise is Great
Rear Admiral
 
Enterprise is Great's Avatar
 
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Yeah, why go ape shit over Mugatos?
__________________
JJverse Star Trek...ROCKED on May 17, 2013 and beyond!
Enterprise is Great is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 01:00 AM   #294
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Why would TPTB get such a weed up their asses about mugatos? This isn't the Arnold era, after all.
The Licensing staff at CBS Consumer Products still attempt to keep things on track. The canonical material never suggested that mugatos were sentient, nor might one day have representatives in Starfleet. It's CBS Consumer Products' job to challenge the tie-in authors/editors to defend/explain/modify any deviation-from-canon ideas that are in proposals, lest the tie-ins drift so far from ST as to be unrecognizable.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Therin of Andor; December 27 2011 at 01:22 AM. Reason: typo
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 01:06 AM   #295
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

As long as it's clear that Janos was a special case, why would there be a problem?

Enterprise is Great wrote: View Post
Yeah, why go ape shit over Mugatos?
sounds like gorilla warfare to me!
__________________
Sweet dreams are made of cheese
Who am I to diss a Brie?
I Cheddar the world and the Feta cheese
Everybody's looking for Stilton

Last edited by Mr. Laser Beam; December 27 2011 at 01:17 AM.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 01:21 AM   #296
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As long as it's clear that Janos was a special case, why would there be a problem?
That's the point. It wasn't necessarily clear that he was a special case in his first appearance, nor that he was the result of genetic tampering. Just that for some reason he had a cultured (British?) accent.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 02:49 AM   #297
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Not to flog a dead horse, but with regards to the objection against what Sisko goes through in Rough Beasts of Empire, I'd just like to say this:

I know that as science fiction fans in the 21st Century, we see a genre with an unfortunate underrepresentation of African-American voices, and of empowering portrayals of African-Americans. For every Benjamin Sisko in sci-fi, there are two or three Captain Terrells -- poor Paul Winfield practically made a career of dying to protect white guys in his movies. And I think we all understand that a story can have an unegalitarian EFFECT or CONNOTATION even if that's not the INTENT of the author.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that Sisko was treated poorly in RBoE, or that the apparently disempowering situation he was in was itself a bad thing. It was, frankly, a logical continuation of the story begun in S7 of DS9 -- if you marry her, you will know only sorrow. It's clearly building the seeds of a new story for future DS9 novels.

And further, that Sisko goes through this dark phase of his life is not unequal treatment. Really, Sisko's situation in RBoE is no worse than Picard's in the Destiny trilogy -- Picard goes through this very dark period where he confronts his greatest weakness, his achilles heel, the thing that turns him into the worst version of himself. Which, I mean, we all have that -- we all have our triggers, problems that seem so vast that we find ourselves reduced to our least admirable selves. And Sisko, as dark as his journey is in RBoE, doesn't go through anything as bad as what Picard goes through in Destiny -- he doesn't have a complete emotional breakdown and find himself reduced to a state of utter helplessness, falling onto the bridge and crying like an infant because he just can't function anymore.

So I very strongly disagree with the assertion that Sisko is treated in a manner that is in some way unegalitarian. Not in intention, and not in effect. White and black primary characters alike have gone through harrowing, disempowering personal crises in modern Trek Literature, and white and black primary characters alike have gone through empowering stories as well.
__________________
Democratic socialism is the hope of human freedom.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 03:13 AM   #298
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^ Do you think Avery Brooks himself would approve of what has happened to Sisko?
__________________
Sweet dreams are made of cheese
Who am I to diss a Brie?
I Cheddar the world and the Feta cheese
Everybody's looking for Stilton
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 03:24 AM   #299
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: Montgomery County, State of Maryland
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Do you think Avery Brooks himself would approve of what has happened to Sisko?
I do not know, and I would not presume to speak for him.

I do understand not liking seeing an African-American character undergo a divorce, but I don't think it's fair to conclude that this happens in RBoE because of any sort of racial insensitivity or unconscious racial bias. As I said before, I think that the ultimate merits of this narrative development are non-racial in nature, and do not exist in a larger context of depicting non-African-Americans in a more empowering way.

After all -- even if one major African-American character is having a divorce, another -- Jake Sisko -- has, so far as I know (having not yet read Fearful Symmetry or The Soul Key), been depicted as having a successful marriage.
__________________
Democratic socialism is the hope of human freedom.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2011, 03:53 AM   #300
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I just looked him up on MB, and it does say that he and Korena visit Earth together in RBOE.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.