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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old December 24 2011, 02:03 AM   #226
Christopher
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
Nowhere does this say that you do not write female characters well. None of this has been directed at you.
Then what are you saying? You make this broad generalization about "female characters getting the short end of the stick," but you've only cited two specifics, Janeway and Kira, both of which have been explained (and both of whose major life changes result from decisions made by a female editor). You won't give any further specifics to explain just what the hell it is you imagine you're seeing, so how are we supposed to respond?


How often has it been seriously considered to permanantly kill Picard? Or Sisko? Or Riker? Or Archer?
Again, just because the decision was made to kill Janeway, that doesn't mean it's because she's a woman. One single, isolated instance is not evidence of a pattern. The distinction you're commenting on here is meaningless unless you can demonstrate a pattern of killing off female characters. With only one instance, you can't prove it's anything more than the luck of the draw.

Now, let's do this methodically for a change. Instead of cherrypicking, let's take a look at all the evidence. This thread deals with canonical characters who've been killed off in Trek Lit. Updating to the present day, concentrating only on more-or-less major characters who've died in the main book continuity, and leaving out Mirror Universe characters (except one whose death was a major plot point in a main-timeline DS9 novel), the list includes:


I count 9 male and 5 female casualties out of the significant canonical characters (some more significant in prose than onscreen) killed in the main Trek Lit continuity. Add in the more minor characters mentioned in that thread, and they split about evenly male and female. Other books that aren't (necessarily?) in the main continuity have killed off McCoy, T'Pau, Garrovick, and Mark Piper -- again, mostly men.

All told, a comfortable majority of the canonical characters killed off in Trek Lit have been male. Not that it matters, of course. We don't choose to kill characters based on their sex, but based on whether it serves the story. Nobody's trying to stock their refrigerators here.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:05 AM   #227
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
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In which case he is wrong and I have said so.
So which ST novel authors do you accuse, so the right ones know to come and defend themselves?
My Trek books are packed away right now but I have been reading them since the Blish adaptations.

If you want to believe that women have always been portrayed as well as the men in the Trek novels that's your decision.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:06 AM   #228
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
JWolf wrote: View Post
I do think that Kirsten did some very good writing with Voyager. The way she handled Janeway's death among the crew of the Voyager was very well written. To invalidate all of that by bringing Janeway back to life would be a tragedy worse then her death. So let's leave her dead and let's move on.
I don't think that's there's any question she'll be back at some time. Q being the untimate "Get Out of Death" card. Just like the Borg, there may not be plans for her return at this time but there's nothing that would prevent her from returning at some point in the future.
I think bringing Janeway back will piss off more people then it did when she was killed. I think it's bets to let her stay dead. Things are doing very well with Voyager without her. To be honest, I'd feel cheated if she was back alive.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:06 AM   #229
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace, please read Kristen's books. The 3 out so far have been excellent. Even if you don't like that she is gone, Janeway has left an amazing legacy. As a Voyager fan, you won't be disappointed. I think you will find that they are as good if not better than the best Voyager tv episodes.

Reading them will hopefully give you greater respect for the franshise. You may also be pleased to know the editor who choose to kill Janeway is no longer an editor there so perhaps you won't have to be so mad and/or disappointed knowing the person most responsible for the situation has moved on in her career.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:10 AM   #230
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you can include that one. We don't actually know if there was a death.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:10 AM   #231
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

"How often has it been seriously considered to permanantly kill Picard?"

Well, there was the possibility of killing Picard in the Best of Both Worlds. Had Avery Brooks chosen not to renew his contract at the end of season 6, he probably would have died with Jadzia, if they decided to continue the show at all. I also understand Chakotay and Kim were considered for death in the show because the actors were a pain to work with. So, to be fair, even in the tv days, characters were up for the axe but then the actors could be responsible for a character's death.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:12 AM   #232
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

JWolf wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you can include that one. We don't actually know if there was a death.
Wait, wait. So you aren't sure if he is dead but you are certain Janeway is?
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Old December 24 2011, 02:13 AM   #233
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
JWolf wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you can include that one. We don't actually know if there was a death.
Wait, wait. So you aren't sure if he is dead but you are certain Janeway is?
We know Janeway is dead. We know there's a way to bring her back. What I'm saying is let her stay dead.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:15 AM   #234
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
My Trek books are packed away right now but I have been reading them since the Blish adaptations.

If you want to believe that women have always been portrayed as well as the men in the Trek novels that's your decision.
You keep shifting the goalposts. Are you talking about "always" or are you talking about the modern stable of novelists? Because those are obviously two very different topics. It goes without saying that there was plenty of sexism in the '70s books, but it's ridiculous to lump those together with what we're doing today, over a generation later.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:15 AM   #235
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Christopher wrote: View Post
MattWallace wrote: View Post
Nowhere does this say that you do not write female characters well. None of this has been directed at you.
Then what are you saying? You make this broad generalization about "female characters getting the short end of the stick," but you've only cited two specifics, Janeway and Kira, both of which have been explained (and both of whose major life changes result from decisions made by a female editor). You won't give any further specifics to explain just what the hell it is you imagine you're seeing, so how are we supposed to respond?


How often has it been seriously considered to permanantly kill Picard? Or Sisko? Or Riker? Or Archer?
Again, just because the decision was made to kill Janeway, that doesn't mean it's because she's a woman. One single, isolated instance is not evidence of a pattern. The distinction you're commenting on here is meaningless unless you can demonstrate a pattern of killing off female characters. With only one instance, you can't prove it's anything more than the luck of the draw.

Now, let's do this methodically for a change. Instead of cherrypicking, let's take a look at all the evidence. This thread deals with canonical characters who've been killed off in Trek Lit. Updating to the present day, concentrating only on more-or-less major characters who've died in the main book continuity, and leaving out Mirror Universe characters (except one whose death was a major plot point in a main-timeline DS9 novel), the list includes:


I count 9 male and 5 female casualties out of the significant canonical characters (some more significant in prose than onscreen) killed in the main Trek Lit continuity. Add in the more minor characters mentioned in that thread, and they split about evenly male and female. Other books that aren't (necessarily?) in the main continuity have killed off McCoy, T'Pau, Garrovick, and Mark Piper -- again, mostly men.

All told, a comfortable majority of the canonical characters killed off in Trek Lit have been male. Not that it matters, of course. We don't choose to kill characters based on their sex, but based on whether it serves the story. Nobody's trying to stock their refrigerators here.
And what is the ratio of major male to female characters? How many captains have been women? If most of the people on the Titanic were men would you be surprised that most of those that died were men as well? When women are undrepresented as major characters, should we be surprised that MORE aren't being killed off or just treated badly?

How would it look if Trek had a gay captain and then, after the series ended they were uncermoniously killed off? Do you think that the gay fans would be totally in favor of that? After all, one data point doesn't make a trend. Just because the surviving captains were all hetrosexual males doesn't mean a thing in that case? As long as the captains that are killed off are of a group that's few in number that makes it ok?
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Old December 24 2011, 02:20 AM   #236
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

^ Why is it you keep going out to left field and making your points look sillier and sillier?
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Old December 24 2011, 02:22 AM   #237
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

I've got to give Margaret Clark credit. This book was published in 2007 and we probably talk about it more than any Trek book since. Whether killing Janeway or chosing Peter David to write it were good or bad ideas and whether or not books sales have benefited, we are energized and talking.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:23 AM   #238
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
If you want to believe that women have always been portrayed as well as the men in the Trek novels that's your decision.
I've decided no such thing. You made the accusation, and seemingly specifically about Janeway, Kira and Ro? When we ask for clarification you back away.

I'm not asking for you to make a complete analysis, or to dig out your collection and reread anything, just a little more than a vague idea about which women were mistreated by which novelists. If they don't roll off your tongue, the incidents couldn't have been so memorable.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:25 AM   #239
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I've got to give Margaret Clark credit. This book was published in 2007 and we probably talk about it more than any Trek book since. Whether killing Janeway or chosing Peter David to write it were good or bad ideas and whether or not books sales have benefited, we are energized and talking.
Exactly. Novels that polarize the readership, even 50:50, keep the line energised. If more people liked "Warped!", we'd probably discuss it more often, too.
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Old December 24 2011, 02:26 AM   #240
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Re: Before Dishonour....seriously?!

MattWallace wrote: View Post
And what is the ratio of major male to female characters?
A lot better in the literature than it is onscreen.

How many captains have been women?
More in the literature than there have been onscreen.

Will you for the love of Gene make up your mind whether you're attacking the novelists or the screenwriters? You seem to make a different argument in every single post. I'm not sure even you know what the hell it is you're actually arguing here.


How would it look if Trek had a gay captain and then, after the series ended they were uncermoniously killed off? Do you think that the gay fans would be totally in favor of that?
I'll repeat what I said before: it's contradictory to say you want equality and then cry bigotry if a minority character is subjected to the same risks as any other character. If you insist the minority character be absolutely sheltered from any negative consequences, that's not equality, it's tokenism.

Margaret Clark, the editor of Before Dishonor, made the decision to kill off Kathryn Janeway. Are you saying Margaret Clark, a woman who was in a position of power over the novel line, had an objection to women in a position of power? Seriously, are you listening to yourself?
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