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Old June 28 2011, 09:42 PM   #16
Cary L. Brown
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Austin, Texas
Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Science Officer wrote: View Post
Concerning the Iowa class - would you be aiming for something like the Ryan Church semi-TOS style?
http://www.ryanchurch.com/picture/io...tureId=7785256
When I saw this a while back, it struck me as good looking ship.
Hi, S.O.

The link doesn't seem to work, but if you mean the very early sketch he did which looked very TOS-ish...yeah, that's pretty much what I mean. (I copied that image from the site... this is the one I'm thinking of)



Basically, the shapes and configuration will remain as seen in the film. The total embarked complement will remain 800-ish, though only about 150 of those are CREW.

See, I see the Iowa class as being part of the Colonial Command. It's a big transport, intended to carry colonists and supplies to the site of a new colony, to provide assistance during the establishment of that colony, and to provide military support until the colony becomes able to defend itself.

This explains the single nacelle (low maneuverability, but efficient and quick travel), it explains the big cargo-bay/hangar hull with so many shuttles, it explains the SIZE of the ship ("bigger doesn't mean better" except in fanboy-land) as well as the embarked crew complement.

The idea of using purely TOS-ish component is silly, so I dislike most of the "TOS Kelvin" designs I've seen so far. There's no reason for two ships of the same era to be made with identical lines to their components. But there IS strong reason to assume similar STYLE and similar functional features.

The Iowa should have been done to look like a pre-TOS ship. Instead, it looked like... well, like something we've never seen in Trek. Obviously, Ryan Church was TRYING to respect TOS's legacy. I just want to try my hand and seeing how that works out.
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Old June 28 2011, 10:07 PM   #17
Cary L. Brown
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Cary:

That image you last posted looks good, however as I'm sure you know, the entire leading edge is rounded and not squared off. I'm sure the way you have it is just a result of the rudimentary state of the mesh, and not your eventual intention.
Of course... Adding rounds before the shape is filled in just complicates things. I can add them to make rendering prettier, but just delete them afterwards. So... no rounds there yet, but the edge will be a "full round," most likely.
What you see on the side view is the vent system for the forward torpedo launchers. Instead of venting to aft, like on the TMP E, this ship vents to port and starboard. The launchers (3) would be centered on the same line as the vents -- one in the middle flanked by one on either side. These launchers would be recessed and concealed, similar to the launchers Probert depicts here, but flush with the forward surface of the neck
Got it. The "Evolution" print set listed only phasers, no torpedoes... so I assumed that there were none. I think I have an idea how to deal with that now. Thanks.

Also, I get the markings now. They're there to "call the ball." Got it.
Space energy field attraction sensors, port and starboard, similar to what you see on Reliant's upper saucer but somewhat more embedded in the hull. I agree about the triangulation issue in principle, but I don't recall there being three on Reliant, just the two upper installations. Where was the other?
Two on the hull upper surface, the third on the top of the weapons pod.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...vy-frigate.php

Each sensor has a toroidal core, with a core suspended, going through the center of that. The structure behind it can vary, but the little "nib" at the tip is the real sensor element. It's actually very much like a real magnetic field sensor, in fact, though those usually have a longer coil and a longer ferrite rod passing through the center of this coil.

Think of these as just dramatically more advanced versions of the little "stud finder" devices you can buy at the hardware store, which you use to locate nails in your wall. These are dramatically more advanced, of course, but they basically read magnetic field orientation and strength (and record patterns, of course). By comparing the results of the three different devices, you can identify not only the strength, structure, and orientation of a field, but also the origin of that field. In other words... this isn't fantasy, it's actual SCIENCE fiction.

So... the optimal place for such a third sensor would be on the underside of the secondary hull at the centerline. Since I presume that the deflector is in a "cut-out" region down there, I'm inclined to similarly inset the third magnetic field sensor right underneath that. it would be visible only from the front view or the underside view.
That is a dedicated probe launcher. one each port and starboard. Think something similar to Finney's "ion pod," but multifunctional.
Got it. So, basically four "flaps" around a central launcher barrel... it opens up to allow a launch. The location is acceptable for something like a towed-array (which is what I treat the ion pod as).
Damn... I don't remember what the hell they were supposed to be. Hatches of some kind, I'm sure. You'll have to help me out on that one.

I don't recall what that was supposed to be either. All I can say about that and the other rectangular set is this: Ariel is almost totally devoted to flight deck and hangar space to the aft. As the secondary hull tapers forward, the space is devoted more and more to storage. The entire secondary hull is flight decks, hangars, workshops and cargo/equipment/fuel storage.
Okay, then...

The rectangles near the transition into the dorsal will be direct access to cargo bays. That's easy enough.

As for the circular shapes... I think I'm going to exercise a little bit of discretion here. instead of being circles on the surface, I'm going to make them observation domes. (I'll treat the little quarter-round as being a reflection artifact in your drawing). They ARE well-positioned for a flight-controller to manage access to those top-fore access elevators, aren't they?
I had a general idea of the layout of the ship -- the secondary hull as I described, and the primary hull to support the three crews -- the ship's crew, the flight crew, and the large contingent of Security Corps personnel (Mobile Ground Forces and Surface Action Specialists). The secondary hull would hangar these troops' landing craft, "stardiver" suits for "Starship Trooper"-like entries, first wave automechs, photorp and phaser tanks, etc.
Regarding the various embarked craft, I'm not really planning on getting too deep into what the individual craft are. (After all, as time passes, these will change anyway... nobody's flying F-4s or F-101s anymore, but the same airfields and carriers are still in service, right?) I'm just going to lay out the hangar space to allow ~85 "standard-sized craft" (whatever they may be), plus room for inspection pods, work-bees, etc, and plenty of extra room for "special needs craft" which may be significantly larger than conventional auxiliary craft (maybe even as large as the ludicrously huge shuttles seen in ST-09?).
Studying Todd Guenther's layout for the Ingram space control ship will be very instructive for how I saw these interlinked bays to join up with the null gravity tubes and the forward cargo spaces.
That's largely what I had in mind. Now, I have the old Ingram plans in a nice plastic envelope... but it's been a LONG time since I've opened them up. I guess I'll have to go break those out, huh? Just to make sure I'm following, stylistically, with what you intended.

Last edited by Cary L. Brown; June 29 2011 at 01:27 AM.
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Old June 29 2011, 01:23 AM   #18
Cary L. Brown
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Huh? Where's my last post go???

Odd, but I can easily recreate it.

I did just a few things tonight. I had been planning on creating my "upper wing surface" prior to creating the dorsal ("neck") structure, but I realized I needed some tangency measurements from the dorsal in order to get this "right." So, I've gone ahead and created this. I'll then finish my curves, and step back in the model to before the neck is created to do the wing top, then, I'll blend the two together the rest of the way.

The "neck" you see here protrudes all the way to the bottom of the ship, but realize, this isn't REALLY what's happening there... this was just to give me the shape I needed to refer to. Pretty much nothing below the blow "sketch curve" you see is going to be present in the final version, and will instead be a blend into the hull top.

From the forward view, you can easily see the general "flare" of the dorsal:


Though from the aft, the blend will not be visible due to the elevated rear portion of this region:


I've got some, but not all, of the curves I need to define this region worked out... you can see them here. I'll probably have at least another four lateral curves and at least two more forwards facing curves to fully define this region. It's really "art" and I'm sure that some elements will not perfect match the port elevation of Aridas' drawings exactly. But I'll match it as closely as I can.

You can see the general shape of my "guide curves" in these two perspective views.



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Old June 29 2011, 11:14 AM   #19
Bernard Guignard
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Very nicely done Cary
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Old June 29 2011, 06:54 PM   #20
Cary L. Brown
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Thanks, Bernard!
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Old June 30 2011, 12:56 AM   #21
Cary L. Brown
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How to make a B/C deck superstructure

Another poster here, "Circusdog," has decided to start working on his own version of the classic 1701, and like me, he's using a CAD package (as opposed to a surface-modeler like Maya or Lightwave or the like).

He was having some trouble figuring out the best way to make the unusual shape of the B/C deck superstructure, and I've offered to post my step-by-step here to help him figure it out.

First... here's the topside of the Ariel's primary hull. I originally created it solely as a set of revolved shapes, and wasn't really planning to do this detail yet (since my focus remains on the secondary hull's complex topside). But I'll have to do it sooner or later, so I've gone ahead and done it now.


The first thing to do is to turn the revolved section into a smaller region, as seen below. It's important to make sure that you have the angle of the absent area as a changeable parameter, so you can simply adjust the angle of that cut-out area (and the tangent angle of the new section) on-the-fly as you tweak the shape.


Now, with the TOS Enterprise, the cylindrical "core" is perfectly adequate, but for TMP-era ships, you can't just sweep around a cylinder and get the shape right, so I added an additional volume to provide the "core" around which I'll be sweeping my shape. This should have a surface which is normal to the shape you want to achieve. I usually use conics to create this sort of shape... this path is defined by two symmetrical conic section, normal to the cut faces.


Now, you need to create the structure you'll be sweeping... a path, and at at least three sketches for cross-sections, as seen below. If you're not happy with the shape you're able to create using three sections, you can always add more (ensuring that they're symmetrical, obviously!). Each section needs to have the same number of drawing entities, and should have its origin at the same point, facing the same direction. I set my section origins in the innermost corner, facing upwards. If you don't get the origin right, the shapes will "twist" as the shape extrudes along the path, and you'll get a MESS.

(Note that you want the new, swept surfaces to be tangent to the existing surfaces. You need to have a surface adjacent to each of those sketch curve edges, so you can establish the tangency of the swept shape against those surfaces.)


I'll show the result of that sweep in no-hidden-line wireframe mode. Now, in this case, I wanted my upper "lip" and lower "lip" for the inset region to be unrelated, so I left the lower lip out of the first sweep. (This is not necessary for the TOS ship, obviously!)


I created a sweep profile for the lower lip... this is a 2D sketch I created, projected onto the surfaces of the inset region. I created three profiles, again, just as before.


Here's the result. Note that I've added a few rounds to help make it look more like a real object... the rounds were not part of the original sweeps.


At this point, you start comparing your shape to the sketches (which you should have been doing all along, obviously, but now you make it into the "final" shape). You tweak the various parameters in your shapes... the "cut-out angle" for example... and adjust things to get as close as you can to the drawn images.

The following two images allow you to compare my final result to the "trace sketch reference" I'm using. The lateral view is nearly perfect... and I'm not inclined to make any further tweaks here.


The top-down view is very close... but not totally exact. As I said before, I could add more sections to match the top-down view more closely, but I don't WANT to do that... I actually like the look I've got here better.


And that's all there is to it. Hope that helps... or at least is of some interest to the rest of you!
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Old June 30 2011, 08:41 AM   #22
Science Officer
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Location: United Kingdom
Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Hi Cary,

Thanks for the tutorial - I never considered doing something like that to create the B/C decks. In C4D I think there are various NURBs options that can achieve the same thing.

A question on the your B/C/Bridge decks. Are the drawings meant to represent the exact structure used on the TMP NCC-1701 or a variation?

I ask because that lower lip (below the windows) looks very low. Looking at the side view drawing, the lip on the LHS of the structure is inconsistent with the line drawn across (as on the LHS it's twice as high).

Cheers,
S.O.
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Old June 30 2011, 09:02 AM   #23
Cary L. Brown
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Location: Austin, Texas
Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Science Officer wrote: View Post
Hi Cary,

Thanks for the tutorial - I never considered doing something like that to create the B/C decks. In C4D I think there are various NURBs options that can achieve the same thing.

A question on the your B/C/Bridge decks. Are the drawings meant to represent the exact structure used on the TMP NCC-1701 or a variation?

I ask because that lower lip (below the windows) looks very low. Looking at the side view drawing, the lip on the LHS of the structure is inconsistent with the line drawn across (as on the LHS it's twice as high).

Cheers,
S.O.
Hi S.O.

No, it's not a 1:1 match to the Enterprise's superstructure. In fact, if you review the earlier entry where I lay out decklines, you'll see that this entire section (what on the Enterprise is B and C decks) ONLY includes B deck on this ship.

I didn't create the drawings, of course... also as mentioned earlier, this is Aridas' design, and I'm trying to replicate it as closely as possible, so I'm trying to match his drawings.

FYI, many ships designed in the post-TWOK era were similar to, but not identical to, the 1701. A great example of this is the Federation class Dreadnought (uprated to TMP-era specs). Most people look at this and see the Enterprise with only a third nacelle added and different engine attachment, but this is not true.

Major differences in the TMP-era dreadnought from the TMP-era Enterprise include:

a) A dramatically larger B/C deck structure... nearly twice the volume of the one on the 1701.

b) A different bridge module, with an extended aft section incorporating dual docking ports.

c) A much larger secondary hull... fully 1/3 longer.

d) An extended "lip" at the landing bay doors.

e) two aft-firing photon torpedo launchers (inline with the forward ones)

That's in addition to the top-mounted nacelle and the different lower nacelle mounting.

This is what was done during that time period. Similar shapes and functions... similar STYLE, really... but SIMILAR, not IDENTICAL.

In the case of the Ariel, the protruding stuff on top is actually smaller than on the Enterprise. But the saucer is quite a bit larger in diameter, and has a much different shape (with no undercut). It's only 8 decks thick, though... I'm anxious to do a volume check on it, and to compare this to the TMP 1701 saucer's volume.

In my personal worldview, the inset ring around both the TMP 1701's B/C deck superstructure and this ship's B-deck superstructure is, in fact, the main subspace antenna. A similar device was inside of the TOS ship's B/C deck superstructure, as well... which is the sole reason for this structure's rather unique shape.

Obviously, by the time the Excelsior launched, a different antenna configuration had been introduced which didn't require such a massive, exposed slab of antenna material.
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Old July 1 2011, 11:04 PM   #24
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

awesome 3D work so far
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Old July 1 2011, 11:16 PM   #25
Cary L. Brown
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Docking Ports - Dimensions?

I need some help here. I know that it's been well-established, the exact size of the TMP-era starship docking ports. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find this information anywhere

(Google used to be useful, but now you only get results based on advertising revenue to Google... so no matter how I phrase my query I get the same damned list of WRONG answers every time!)

I'm most specifically looking for the actual enclosed diameter. I could derive it, or take my best guess, but I KNOW that people have figured this out previously, so why re-invent the wheel?

Also... if anyone has a model they've made, using TMP warp nacelles as separate components in their mix, and is willing to share them, I'd be very grateful. OBJ, DXF, Maya, Lightwave... anything like that should be useable, as long as it's NURBS based (not polygonal, or "sub-div", based... those won't work for me).

I'll give credit where due, no worries about that.

Last edited by Cary L. Brown; July 2 2011 at 12:29 AM.
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Old July 2 2011, 02:38 AM   #26
Bernard Guignard
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Re: Docking Ports - Dimensions?

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
I need some help here. I know that it's been well-established, the exact size of the TMP-era starship docking ports. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find this information anywhere

(Google used to be useful, but now you only get results based on advertising revenue to Google... so no matter how I phrase my query I get the same damned list of WRONG answers every time!)

I'm most specifically looking for the actual enclosed diameter. I could derive it, or take my best guess, but I KNOW that people have figured this out previously, so why re-invent the wheel?

Also... if anyone has a model they've made, using TMP warp nacelles as separate components in their mix, and is willing to share them, I'd be very grateful. OBJ, DXF, Maya, Lightwave... anything like that should be useable, as long as it's NURBS based (not polygonal, or "sub-div", based... those won't work for me).

I'll give credit where due, no worries about that.
Hello Cary
Here are some dimensions that I took off an Autocad Bridge blueprint that was sent to me it looks pretty good to me

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Old July 2 2011, 03:12 AM   #27
Cary L. Brown
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Tonight's updates...

The past several days have been spent experimenting with the secondary hull shape, with some input from Aridas. In the end, I ended up keeping pretty much the shape I'd come up with originally, but it was worthwhile effort in any case.





The one significant change in the secondary hull, noticeable to anyone but me anyway, is the addition of the deflector housing. I'll end up "re-ordering" the model to put this after the hull solidification once I get the inner shape worked out... but for now, I'm using it for reference to ensure that the hull surface entirely encompasses this, complete with a 1m thick anti-radiation wall around the entire compartment. (The dish itself, and the various supporting hardware for it, are not yet present, of course... but this will end up looking very much like the TMP Enterprise's dish, just less exposed.)




In addition, doing my B-deck structure got me onto primary hull detailing. Eventually, I'm going to split the model into two, but for now (until the neck structure is final), it's all in one file. Eventually, I plan to have four components... a saucer, a secondary hull, and a pair of nacelles. I'm going to get those patterned up with an SLA machine, so I can have a physical copy of this on my shelf!



On the primary hull, I got the shapes final on the upper decks (A deck and B deck), as you can see here. There are some fine details to be added, but the overall form you see here is "final."



On the underside, I got pretty far along on the lower scanner platform and sensor dome. I think I have a little bit more shape-tweaking to do, and I need to add the surface vents to each of the four legs of this shape, and then create the "scanner windows" and other details inside of each of the four scanner ports. And, obviously I think, the dome needs some detailing added as well!



This is essentially the same technology, even likely the exact identical hardware, as on the Enterprise, but the housing is not shaped identically at this point (again, matching up the shape from the port view on the drawing I provided in my first post in this thread).

Finally, the standard orthos, for comparison to the drawing views:











And finally, one somewhat nicer image...


Last edited by Cary L. Brown; July 2 2011 at 03:34 AM.
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Old July 2 2011, 07:20 PM   #28
publiusr
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Thanks ever so much for doing this. I love all the other Planet of the Titans entries but have wanted to see a 3d model of this for a very long time. I like how you made her a through deck design. That secondary hull is quite fluid.
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Old July 2 2011, 11:26 PM   #29
Cary L. Brown
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

publiusr wrote: View Post
Thanks ever so much for doing this. I love all the other Planet of the Titans entries but have wanted to see a 3d model of this for a very long time. I like how you made her a through deck design. That secondary hull is quite fluid.
I'm afraid you've gotten a misconception... remember, this is not finished... it's a "work in process."

The Ariel is NOT a "through-deck carrier." You can see the bay outlines from the front, because I want to be able to see that surface (with those openings) as I create the remaining volume of the secondary hull.

There WILL be some "from the front" landing capabilities, however. I have discussed this with Aridas, and if you look at the top-down view, you'll see four squares with four smaller squares visible in them. Those are lift platforms. You can best visualize these by thinking about the landing platforms seen on "Space 1999" for the Eagles. But they are on the "forward side" of the secondary hull... so in THAT sense you will "sort of" get what you were looking for.

I guess I really do need to get my secondary hull shape finished, don't I?

I've already worked out, in my mind, the internal layout I plant for this ship to have. Aridas has given me some feedback on what he was envisioning, and I'm pretty comfortable with how I'm going to make it work, and only have to implement that (but I can't do that until I finish the solid form of the secondary hull).

Maybe I'll spend a few hours tonight and try to make that work, huh?
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Old July 3 2011, 01:44 AM   #30
beamMe
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Re: U.S.S. Ariel - Federation Shuttlecarrier

Good lord, that's ugly.
The ship - not the modelling.
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