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Old June 14 2011, 04:52 PM   #1
TheLobes
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How much does canon violation annoy you?

It seems like lots of trek fans get very annoyed by canon violation, and then put a lot of effort into explaining away anything thats different between seasons or shows. This is one part of trek fandom that I have never understood. As far as Im concerned, each new trek takes place in a slightly different universe with slightly different rules.

I was wondering how much people are generally willing to take. I sometimes think about what Id do if I could make a new trek; Im sure most of you do. I always felt like it would be better to have the Klingons as enemies, the Romulans as allies, and do away with the whole idea of cloaking devices. Then I always wonder how much these things would piss people off.

Do people think that each new show should be the same universe, with as few continuity errors as possible, or that every new show should be something totally different?
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Old June 14 2011, 05:10 PM   #2
BillJ
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

Depends on how flagrant the violation is and how easy it is to smooth over. The only two across the entire franchise that really bother me are the use of cloaking devices in Enterprise (Unexpected, Minefield). If you're working on a TV series you should have a handle on the major story points that are already in place.

I do tend to take issues with the shows that can't seem to be consistent within themselves (looking at you Voyager). Though I do tend to give TOS a pass due to the differences in production and audience expectations in the 1960's.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:16 PM   #3
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

The more Trek I watch, the less I care. I sometimes find it a bit sad when people feel a need to justify these mistakes in their minds to work in universe, when it's clearly just a canon mistake.
Every series had canon violations. As long as they made an effort for continuity within their own series, I don't mind that much. Because when a series tries too hard to fit within canon, we get stuff like the Klingon Augment storyline in ENT. No thank you.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:26 PM   #4
BillJ
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

BlobVanDam wrote: View Post

Because when a series tries too hard to fit within canon, we get stuff like the Klingon Augment storyline in ENT. No thank you.
Some on the best stuff Enterprise did was because they were trying to fit in with TOS. I absolutely love the Augments trilogy, the Klingon ridge two parter, the In a Mirror, Darkly two parter, Observer Effect and Bound.

If it wasn't for the late push by Enterprise to connect in a meaningful way with TOS, I doubt anyone would be talking about it anymore.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:30 PM   #5
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

Zip. Canon violations don't bother me at all because very little has been really been officially de-canonized. Even some aspects of TAS has been put into canon here and there.

Continuity violations, though, that's another matter because those can generally be avoided...
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Old June 14 2011, 05:43 PM   #6
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

No. It's silly to fret over details like that, especially about fiction.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:50 PM   #7
YellowSubmarine
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

I've never got any issues with canon violations themselves, but I do have an issue with how the series are inconsistent with each other, and mostly with TOS. What puts me off the most is when so much attention is paid to observing the canon that it suddenly sticks in my face.

And by that I mean the augments in Enterprise that were already mentioned. The difference in Klingons in TOS an the rest of the series never bothered me that much. True, they are like different race from a different show, but I take them as different stories told in a different way, I can accept them and accept that they are the same people. But then suddenly someone decides to explain the difference in the ridges, which was the least significant difference, by which they are putting the whole inconsistency right into my face. It bothered me a little at first, but when I saw the "explanation"... It started to bother me a lot.

Which is a shame, because it is otherwise a good story. It could have worked if the Klingons in TOS had the same hair, the same manners and the same clothing as the later variants, but they didn't. By "explaining" the ridges you now have to begin explaining the other differences too. And no explanation could work.

Myself, I consider TOS less strict in the depiction of the story, I take it as a retelling of what happened in the universe more than what actually happen, especially when it comes to looks, and everything else seems to fit fine for me.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:55 PM   #8
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

BillJ wrote: View Post
BlobVanDam wrote: View Post

Because when a series tries too hard to fit within canon, we get stuff like the Klingon Augment storyline in ENT. No thank you.
Some on the best stuff Enterprise did was because they were trying to fit in with TOS. I absolutely love the Augments trilogy, the Klingon ridge two parter, the In a Mirror, Darkly two parter, Observer Effect and Bound.

If it wasn't for the late push by Enterprise to connect in a meaningful way with TOS, I doubt anyone would be talking about it anymore.
I recognize that you share the majority opinion, but I personally disagree. I thought the 4th season was a step backwards from S3. S3 was stepping out into it's own and doing something original finally, then with S4 it devolved to largely TOS/canon fanwank, with the Klingons, and the Defiant/Tholian thing, and Soong.
Not that I disliked S4, as most of it was still a lot better than S1/2, but I'd rather them be a bit more free with canon than try to convince me that a cheap colourful wooden set was a ship from ~100 years into the future, or that the reason some Klingons look different was anything other than just production values of a 1960's TV show.
Just because something contradicts something else, doesn't mean it necessitates explanation. I like to simply differentiate production errors/differences from canon violation and just leave it at that. Trek has been going for too long to be 100% consistent. There's no need for them to force the square peg into the circle hole.

Ironically, Enterprise's two biggest weaknesses were violating canon, and trying to stick to canon (as much as it failed). As much as people feel that violating canon was a big problem for ENT, so too was the walking on eggshells to stick to canon on thin technicality. Either ignore it and start fresh, or try to do something completely new that doesn't have to walk around canon, so we don't get the semantics of the Borg or Romulan episodes. Season 3 actually made an effort to do this with new enemies and places, and that's why I feel it was the strongest.

Being boxed in by canon was a huge problem for ENT, and the franchise in general by that point. It pretty much left rebooting as the only option, imo. I do very much appreciate consistency and continuity, but there's also a limit to how far you can take it before it gets in the way of entertainment.
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Old June 14 2011, 05:56 PM   #9
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

About as much as spotting a boom mike in the shot does--it might be kind of fun to point them out, but if they're telling a good story, it doesn't really bother me.
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Old June 14 2011, 06:13 PM   #10
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

Canon violations generally only annoy me when it comes into conflict with major plot points. Stupid writing annoys me more.

I think for a nigh 50 year old franchise, Star Trek as a whole is pretty consistent, actually. But here are a few points that made me cringe a little, some being out and out violations, some just being retcons or stupid writing:

TOS: All those alternate "Earths" out there.
Zephram Cochoran's appearance is now kind of odd, in a post-FC\Enterprise world.

TNG: Data getting a disease in Naked Now. Ferengi being barbaric and savage warriors in TNGs first season is now odd. Trills having Turtles on their heads in the Host is odd, now. the Warp speed limit: lame and was quickly forgotten.
Why are there still Reliant\Miranda class ships buzzing around still, but no constitution class ships anymore, in the TNG era?

DS9 Trill law not allowing the new host to have relationships with previous host's friends and lovers: Jadzia being assign to Sisko is a violation of that, Ezri coming back at all is a violation of that, or at least both cases are very border-line.

VOY: Kazon space taking up half the delta quadrant and Borg space taking up the other half. Warp 10 barriers causing Paris and Janeway to revert to salamander forms and mating, when other incarnations cite speeds as high as Warp 20+. Kes's return. The overall watering down of the Borg as a threat, yet 7 of 9 has a cure or solution for everything using Borg nanites, a la Deus ex machina.

ENTERPRISE: T'Pol's uniform being a unique outfit. How can it be a uniform, when no one else wears it? Trip encountering a holo desk in the episode he gets pregnant. The NX01 Enterprise being named Enterprise, but never having been mentioned before.

Star Trek 3; The Enterprise is 20 years old, and needs to be decommissioned? By all other accounts, official or not, its supposedly closer to 40 by TSFS. Spock's body happening to age to to the exact age he was when he died, on Genesis. Transwarp drive is never mentioned again.

Star Trek 4: Kirk gets another Constitution class Enterprise-A. I thought those ships were to be decommissioned? And where did E-A come from, anyway (at least officially)?

Star Trek 5: Spock has a brother all of a sudden? Sarek was married to a Vulcan princess? the whole ides of looking for god at the center of the galaxy, and the trip taking a few days, when Voyager would take 35 years to get there from the delta quadrant in a ship that is 100 years newer.

Star Trek Nemesis: All of a sudden we have a Clone of Picard who doesn't look like him, so we have to put a picture on Picard's desk of a bald Tom Hardy as Picard, age 20 something, in a starfleet recruit uniform, when Picard clearly had hair in Tapestry. Data has yet another "brother" who comes out of nowhere, and somehow the Romulans captured him? Th very existence of Remans.
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Old June 14 2011, 06:53 PM   #11
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

Not in the least. What's done is done.
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Old June 14 2011, 06:55 PM   #12
Finn
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

Kazon space took up half of the DQ?
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Old June 14 2011, 07:01 PM   #13
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Old June 14 2011, 08:03 PM   #14
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

I find it annoying, but if the story is good, I can easily overlook it. I will say that when you consider how many hundreds of hours of Trek have been produced, I think they've done a good job keeping it consistant.
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Old June 14 2011, 08:29 PM   #15
BillJ
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Re: How much does canon violation annoy you?

BlobVanDam wrote: View Post

...but I'd rather them be a bit more free with canon than try to convince me that a cheap colourful wooden set was a ship from ~100 years into the future...
You know, I find this fucking insulting. The funny thing is, that bridge is every bit as "realistic" looking as anything that came after it. You do know that Star Trek was one of the more expensive series produced in its time?

I tip my hat to Enterprise for having the balls to show respect to those who made it possible way back in the 1960's. Enterprise season four felt like it was finally embracing it roots, instead of running from them like so much of Modern Trek did.
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