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Old August 28 2012, 12:09 AM   #451
Christopher
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Yes, that part could've been handled better, but that doesn't make it any less dishonest to call it "summary execution."

And given that Nero had just murdered Spock's mother and six billion of his people, I think we can forgive him for feeling vengeful.
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Old August 28 2012, 12:22 AM   #452
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Two words: Writer's Strike. We were lucky the script made even that much sense.

That said, I agree with Christopher. Spock had every single right in the universe to say (though not in those words) "To hell with logic - and with mercy."

Edit after reading RPJob's post: Yes, Spock had the right to say that. But he wasn't the one to make the call. Kirk was, and it's to his credit (and the moment in the film I finally accepted this new guy as Captain Kirk) that he offered Nero and his crew a chance. And Nero didn't give him a noble "we who are about to die salute you!" moment like Balance of Terror's commander did in return. He all but spat in Kirk's face. I'd have unleashed the Enterprise's arsenal on him at that moment - face it, the genocidal psycho had it coming.

Last edited by Nightowl1701; August 28 2012 at 01:33 AM.
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Old August 28 2012, 01:02 AM   #453
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Yes, Kevin Riley should have killed Kodos. And Kirk should have killed every Klingon involved with Kruge's mission, all the way up the chain of command.

Everyone should have the right to kill anyone who kills a member of your family. Makes things much easier on the courts. No messy trials to worry about. Let's just let the victims be judge, jury and executioner.

I'm assuming then that Kirk was considered wrong to have even thought to offer Nero a chance to surrender. Good thing Spock, who was in such a stable mental state, was there to set him right.

Nero's ship wasn't going through a black hole, it was going through the ship.

Perhaps Kirk should have fired a couple of torpedoes into the BoP in Balance of Terror as well, just to be sure that the self-destruct worked.
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Old August 28 2012, 01:07 AM   #454
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yes, that part could've been handled better, but that doesn't make it any less dishonest to call it "summary execution."

And given that Nero had just murdered Spock's mother and six billion of his people, I think we can forgive him for feeling vengeful.
I dislike the notion that it's acceptable for any senior officer to make any decision based on revenge. I'm not saying it isn't understandable just that Starfleet should never consider it to be acceptable.

One view is that my interpretation is dishonest; I personally feel that it's a legitimate interpretation because the evidence to justify their actions (self defence) is absent from the screen and evidence supporting the interpretation (where they tell Nero his ship is screwed) is on screen.

But then don't take my comments too seriously - I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.
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Old August 28 2012, 01:13 AM   #455
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Good point. Why the hell would they bring the navigator along on a landing party, except that Chekov was supposed to appeal to teenage girls in the audience? (Well, maybe that's not the best example, since he was initially introduced as an assistant science officer before settling in as navigator -- and interestingly enough, he seems to be a science officer in the Abrams universe as well. Or at least he was in the movie; I wouldn't be surprised if the comics are treating him more as a navigator, since they're mostly TOS episode remakes.)
Why send the helmsman down to Psi 200 or Beta III? Sulu and Chekov were on the command track. They should have been leading most of the landing parties anyway.

The one I have trouble figuring out is taking Scotty and Uhura to search for McCoy on the Time Planet. If you need search teams you've got security for that. Why take the majority of your bridge crew to look for a sick crewman?
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Old August 28 2012, 02:29 AM   #456
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I dislike the notion that it's acceptable for any senior officer to make any decision based on revenge.
As Nightowl1701 just said, nobody did. Kirk made the decision; Spock just offered an opinion. Kirk offered Nero mercy if he'd surrender, but Nero made it clear that he would continue his attempts to do harm, and that's why Kirk made his decision.
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Old August 28 2012, 05:33 AM   #457
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Nero made no such comment. The scene played out as follows:

Captain, the enemy ship is loosing power. They're shields are down.

- Hail them now.

- Aye.

This is Captain James T. Kirk of the USS Enterprise.

Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.

I would rather suffer the end of Romulus a thousand times, I would rather die in agony than accept assistance from you.

You've got it.
Arm phasers.
Fire everything we've got.

The Enterprise knew that Nero and his ship were no danger. Their shield were down. Their power was failing. They were too close to survice. Nothing about the danger of them going through the black hole again.

It was spite on Kirk and Spock part, nothing more. They killed him because they could, not because they had to.

Did Neo deserve to die? That's not for them to decide. That's why we have courts and laws.

Kirk Prime was once accused of killing Ben Finney. Would Jamie Finney be justified in killing him? No trial, just walk into the commodores office and shoot him with a phaser. Why would she wait for the trial?

Also, Kirk saw the possibility of peace with the Romulans but he decided that revenge for his father and for Vulcan was better.
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Old August 28 2012, 08:00 AM   #458
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
It was spite on Kirk and Spock part, nothing more. They killed him because they could, not because they had to.

Did Neo deserve to die? That's not for them to decide. That's why we have courts and laws.

Kirk Prime was once accused of killing Ben Finney. Would Jamie Finney be justified in killing him? No trial, just walk into the commodores office and shoot him with a phaser. Why would she wait for the trial?

Also, Kirk saw the possibility of peace with the Romulans but he decided that revenge for his father and for Vulcan was better.
It might be a stretch to impute Kirk's motives one way or another but it's true to say that the information on screen was that Nero's ship was being destroyed by a singularity opening up within the ship.

It was actually silly to waste time offering assistance; if their shields are down, just give the order to beam them off to arrest them while moving to a safe distance. When that doesn't work, make the decision that you can't risk the ship or escapees surviving a trip through another wormhole and destroy the ship from a safer distance. What we see on screen is none of that logical decision-making process but rather a degree of satisfaction at the summary execution of a mass murderer. It's debatable why 23rd century torpedoes weren't crushed by gravity before reaching the ship in any event.

So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind. I think the fact that different people rationalise Nero's execution in different ways gives us an answer. Different people would view the death in different ways.
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Old August 28 2012, 03:05 PM   #459
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind.
In the original suggestion that Evil Kirk would kill Janice in an adaptation of "The Enemy Within," the word "accidentally" never appeared. What you said was, "have evil Kirk kill her in a fit of jealous rage." That suggests either the deliberate intent to end her life or a reckless disregard for her safety. It was only later, after I questioned the desirability of such a story, that you revised your proposal to include the possibility of accident. Which still doesn't work, since if he attacks her out of rage and she dies as a result, there's no way that could legitimately be called an accident, because it was still his deliberate act that led to her death. A killing that isn't planned in advance but is nonetheless unprovoked, the result of an attack initiated by the killer, would be second-degree murder under US law. Evil Kirk's diminished capacity could get it bumped down to voluntary manslaughter.
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Old August 28 2012, 07:11 PM   #460
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
So this came up in the context of whether Kirk killing someone accidentally while fighting them would irredeemably taint the character if it occurred while not in his right state of mind.
In the original suggestion that Evil Kirk would kill Janice in an adaptation of "The Enemy Within," the word "accidentally" never appeared. What you said was, "have evil Kirk kill her in a fit of jealous rage." That suggests either the deliberate intent to end her life or a reckless disregard for her safety. It was only later, after I questioned the desirability of such a story, that you revised your proposal to include the possibility of accident. Which still doesn't work, since if he attacks her out of rage and she dies as a result, there's no way that could legitimately be called an accident, because it was still his deliberate act that led to her death. A killing that isn't planned in advance but is nonetheless unprovoked, the result of an attack initiated by the killer, would be second-degree murder under US law. Evil Kirk's diminished capacity could get it bumped down to voluntary manslaughter.
True and it leads us into 'the Trial of Captain Kirk' nicely! In fact, even provocation would most likely lead to conviction in the UK, possibly with a reduced sentence at the discretion of the trial judge.

Actually, evil Kirk viciously assaulted quite a few crewmen and reconstituted Kirk was never held accountable. Of course Rand wouldn't be able to agree not to press charges if she was dead... Scotty got off pretty lightly too.

If I'm honest, rather than ending up dead, I think I'd rather Rand gave evil Kirk a lot more to think about than a few scratches on his face; I don't think in the 21st century we are so willing to accept female characters as relatively helpless victims. We'll have to wait and see if it's one they decide to re-imagine.!
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Old August 28 2012, 08:10 PM   #461
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Actually, evil Kirk viciously assaulted quite a few crewmen and reconstituted Kirk was never held accountable. Of course Rand wouldn't be able to agree not to press charges if she was dead... Scotty got off pretty lightly too.
Fictional characters do lots of harmful things under various mind-altering influences, but they're generally forgiven if they don't go too far. My point is that having it actually result in the death of another series regular is crossing a line, because it would taint the character irreversibly. It's not someplace a storyteller would want to take a series regular unless they were doing a much darker series than Star Trek.
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Old August 28 2012, 09:00 PM   #462
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Actually, evil Kirk viciously assaulted quite a few crewmen and reconstituted Kirk was never held accountable. Of course Rand wouldn't be able to agree not to press charges if she was dead... Scotty got off pretty lightly too.
Fictional characters do lots of harmful things under various mind-altering influences, but they're generally forgiven if they don't go too far. My point is that having it actually result in the death of another series regular is crossing a line, because it would taint the character irreversibly. It's not someplace a storyteller would want to take a series regular unless they were doing a much darker series than Star Trek.
True - this is Nu Trek, not NuBSG.

Still, kill Rand and bring across her sluttier Mirror version...?
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Old August 28 2012, 10:59 PM   #463
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Still, kill Rand and bring across her sluttier Mirror version...?
To pursue Gaila?
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Old August 29 2012, 01:05 AM   #464
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Still, kill Rand and bring across her sluttier Mirror version...?
To pursue Gaila?
You mean Mirror Rand and and NuGaila getting it on? I thought Orion pheromones only annoyed women? Still, orders are orders and evil kirk thinks they are too much woman to ignore...
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Old August 29 2012, 08:17 AM   #465
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

The end of the movie was actually a fairly close parallel of the end of Balance of Terror up to the point of Spock advising that Nero should be killed. In both, the Romulan turned down the offer of assistance, although in radically different ways.

Even though, since the shields were down as Pauln6 said, they should have simply beamed them aboard. The point of the scene was to show that in this universe, our enemies are much less likely to be as noble as they were in TOS. Also, that this is not the 1960's version of the show, it's Trek for a post 9/11 world. There is no redemption. There is no alternate viewpoint. It's a black and white world now. At least on the screen. Enemies are to be destroyed, not simply stopped and captured. Vengeance is understandable and even admirable. After all, Vulcans were the wronged parties. Let one of the last survivors judge Nero.
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