NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

[Hando]

Having read the Return of the Archons, I am wondering: Is this a confirmation that nuTrek was always a separate universe, or are the authors/writers/artists pretty much ignoring canon?

[Christopher]

^I haven't read the story yet, but is there anything about it that directly and irreconcilably contradicts the aired episode? I gather it establishes that

Landru was actually a crewmember of the Archon, but not having read the story, it sounds to me like that could be a case where the characters in the original episode simply misinterpreted the facts, believing Landru to be ancient when he actually wasn't. (It's hardly uncommon for historically recent cultural changes to be mistakenly believed to be ancient traditions. Look at the way conservatives today defend a "traditional, Biblical" definition of marriage that's actually only a few generations old.)

[bullethead]

Christopher wrote:

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^I haven't read the story yet, but is there anything about it that directly and irreconcilably contradicts the aired episode? I gather it establishes that

Landru was actually a crewmember of the Archon, but not having read the story, it sounds to me like that could be a case where the characters in the original episode simply misinterpreted the facts, believing Landru to be ancient when he actually wasn't. (It's hardly uncommon for historically recent cultural changes to be mistakenly believed to be ancient traditions. Look at the way conservatives today defend a "traditional, Biblical" definition of marriage that's actually only a few generations old.)

I think he's referring to the Archon's design, which is odd for several reasons.

[Hando]

I re-watched the episode again and there are things that could be explained as something misunderstood on one side and the artistic licence on the other. But the general feeling I get from them is that there is something off.
So I would like to point out:

1. The whole Starfleet conspiracy: Starfleet responsible for the colony, the computer and for editing info about the planet and the ship. I just cannot find a hint of this in the episode.
2. Beta III technological level middle ages in the comic and 19th century in the episode.
3. The appearance and location of the Landru computer: in the episode it is depicted as typical TOS computer and is placed in the dungeons, in the comic it is “advanced” and hidden behind the Archon hull in a large ?cavern.
4. USS Archon is depicted as a nuNX class in the comic (NX class with nuTrek style nacelles)

This is what comes first to my mind but there are also some other points that evolve from these.

[Christopher]

^Well, point 3 is simply a difference of interpretation. The original computer looked that way because the show only had so much money and technology at its disposal. Given the chance to go back and change it, Roddenberry wouldn't have hesitated to replace it with something more impressive. (Remember, when TMP gave the Klingons ridged foreheads, he asked fans to assume they'd always looked like that.) Sometimes it's important to keep in mind that TOS was just the best approximation its makers could pull off with the resources and budget available to them, rather than taking it as a literal depiction of events down to the last detail.

As for point 4, we don't know canonically what class of ship the Archon was, and the rendering of the nacelles could just be a matter of the artist using the wrong reference, like the way DC's starship Surak was given three or four different appearances -- an Oberth in one issue, a tiny Excelsior in another, and an indistinct slab of technology in a third.

I still don't know all the details of the story, but from what you say about point 1,

if the whole planet is a lost Earth colony, that might be a good explanation for why this "alien" planet had Earthlike architecture and clothing designs and even a 12-hour clock printed with Arabic numerals. It would conflict with the half-baked rationalization I proposed for that in Ex Machina, but it might actually be a better explanation.

Although, again, I haven't actually read the issue so I can only go from your description.

[Hando]

^True. I myself could find several explanations that would explain things and be post-split.

Truthfully, the main discomfiture stems from my prejudice – that I view the nuTrek as an independent/separate universe from the beginning rather than an alternative timeline, comparable to FASA and Star Fleet Battles – and I just cannot lose it. And the universe could be made so richer by it.

Also it’s one thing to read old comics that are sooo out there and that just cannot be taken on face value, given the time of their production, and more modern ones, where one would expect them to be more in line. But that is just me.

Well, we shall see what they will do to (if they do) to Nomad, Miri and/or more Earth-centric episodes; not to forget the Gorn in the upcoming game.

Thank you Christopher.

[Christopher]

Hando wrote:

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Also it’s one thing to read old comics that are sooo out there and that just cannot be taken on face value, given the time of their production, and more modern ones, where one would expect them to be more in line. But that is just me.

Well, there's always a learning curve. And some artists are simply better at using photo reference than others. Or maybe that's too judgmental a way of putting it; some artists take a more literal approach while others are more impressionistic.

These days, it's increasingly common in comics (or so it seems to me) for different artists to develop their own characteristic design styles rather than trying to conform to some standardized house style. So the same character can look radically different in two different comics coming out simultaneously or consecutively -- like John Romita, Jr.'s rendering of Peter Parker/Spider-Man versus Humberto Ramos's far more cartoony version, which looks like almost a completely different person. Sometimes technology or equipment design can be just as subject to individual artistic interpretation. So it isn't necessarily about having enough experience to get it "right." Sometimes what seems like inaccuracy is simply artistic license.

[Pauln6]

The conclusion to the Tribble story was one of the best so far. It didn't feel rushed, it addressed some niggling plot points, and it made reasonable use of the supporting cast, although I would have liked to see Chapel, a research biologist, or Mulhall, Enterprise's resident astrobiologist, helping McCoy out instead of Spock - it always annoyed me that Spock was such a know-it-all that he muscled in on biological research despite being a physicist. With 400 crew they should use crew assigned to specific posts for the jobs that they're trained to do!

Even Rand got a decent shout in this one, possibly hinting that they might be gearing up for one of the Rand-heavy episodes like the Enemy Within. Not sure why Hendorff has transferred to science department though...

[datalogan]

I liked the solution to the tribble problem.

Lower temperatures leading to lower rates of reproduction. And the mention that tribbles only reproduce so fast because they are such a short-lives species with significant predators.

These ideas show at least some thought went into the comic.

But what I don't like is the two important points where it's clear that significant thought did not go into it, where it's obvious the writers are just trying to use some hand-waving to return the story telling to status quo because they messed up earlier:

(1)

Why can Spock Prime not help out in this new universe more? This comic says that Spock Prime is choosing not to in order to prevent "messing with the timeline". This is obviously bunk. Spock Prime knows that this is not the same timeline he came from. He has already acknowledged that and taken significant action to help (in 2009 film by giving Kirk info and helping him get back aboard Enterprise, then later openly helping the Vulcans relocate to a new planet). Since this is a different reality, why shouldn't Spock help out more? There were so many situations in the original timeline where Kirk, Spock, and company "won the day" just by some random chance factor (like showing up in the right place at the right time, etc). Heck, just a minor schedule change in the Enterprise's flight plan could have them in different area encountering different issues than in the original Spock Prime timeline. And we know more than a "minor" scheduling change has already happen, like Enterprise being launched 15 years later than in original timeline. Now that the timeline is changed it's entirely possible, for instance, that Enterprise is too late to stop Khan from taking over after having been revived by some ship other than the Enterprise. Or Enterprise encounters the Doomsday Machine without the benefit of another ship (Constellation) around to throw down its gullet.
Spock Prime is not concerned about maintaining a timeline that obviously already no longer exists.
The only reason that Spock Prime would not help out people in this new timeline is because he has "faith" that everything will turn out OK. It's hardly a logical stance. Unless he believes that the "universe" is working to make things turn out alright. And even if that was the case, why couldn't Spock Prime help the universe along?

(2)

Scotty's long-distance beaming has consistently been proven to work well with no real issues. Every single thing transported (equipment, Kirk, Scott, Spock, the tribble, even the beagle) has been shown to survive with no real issues. This is a very helpful and powerful bit of technology. Too power from a story-telling perspective. So the writers want to sweep it under the rug. And all they come up with is the half-page of this comic saying that the technology is not going to be developed because Scotty transported a dangerous tribble. So what? That doesn't negate the innumerable positive (or weapon) uses the technology could have. You serious expect me to believe that Starfleet Intelligence want to "check out" the tribble, but not the long-range transportation? That's just wrong.

As I've said before on other threads, I would like to get back to storytelling without the issues brought up by easy long-distance transporters. Maybe if the writer just ignored it as a mistake of the 2009 film and just never mentioned it again. But you can't serious continue to use the technology (like in issues 11 and 12) and expect me to buy into this flimsy excuse for why you're not going to use it again. Ignore the issue completely, or come up with a better way out of it; don't make things worse by compounding one bit of bad writing with still more implausible and unbelievable bad writing.

[Pauln6]

Don't get me started on the merits of long distance beaming - using unmodified communications relays no less. I understand that they want to avoid technobabble but they could introduce technological side effects to come up with some decent reasons to sweep it under the rug. In fact, if the Enemy Within is coming next year, the malfunction could even be attributed to Scotty's tinkering and give us something tangible to put a lid on it.

[1bulma1]

Pauln6 wrote:

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The conclusion to the Tribble story was one of the best so far. It didn't feel rushed, it addressed some niggling plot points, and it made reasonable use of the supporting cast, although I would have liked to see Chapel, a research biologist, or Mulhall, Enterprise's resident astrobiologist, helping McCoy out instead of Spock - it always annoyed me that Spock was such a know-it-all that he muscled in on biological research despite being a physicist. With 400 crew they should use crew assigned to specific posts for the jobs that they're trained to do!

Even Rand got a decent shout in this one, possibly hinting that they might be gearing up for one of the Rand-heavy episodes like the Enemy Within. Not sure why Hendorff has transferred to science department though...

spock is becoming a marty stu...the male version of a mary sue

[Hartzilla2007]

1bulma1 wrote:

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spock is becoming a mart stu...

No he's just Vulcan

[Nightowl1701]

datalogan wrote:

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Scotty's long-distance beaming has consistently been proven to work well with no real issues. Every single thing transported (equipment, Kirk, Scott, Spock, the tribble, even the beagle) has been shown to survive with no real issues. This is a very helpful and powerful bit of technology. Too power from a story-telling perspective. So the writers want to sweep it under the rug. And all they come up with is the half-page of this comic saying that the technology is not going to be developed because Scotty transported a dangerous tribble. So what? That doesn't negate the innumerable positive (or weapon) uses the technology could have. You serious expect me to believe that Starfleet Intelligence want to "check out" the tribble, but not the long-range transportation? That's just wrong.

As I've said before on other threads, I would like to get back to storytelling without the issues brought up by easy long-distance transporters. Maybe if the writer just ignored it as a mistake of the 2009 film and just never mentioned it again. But you can't serious continue to use the technology (like in issues 11 and 12) and expect me to buy into this flimsy excuse for why you're not going to use it again. Ignore the issue completely, or come up with a better way out of it; don't make things worse by compounding one bit of bad writing with still more implausible and unbelievable bad writing.

Are they sweeping it under the rug? Or is this their way of making sure that only the bad guys in the next film have it and not our heroes? All the better to, say, pull an out-of-nowhere attack on the Enterprise from the inside out...

[JarodRussell]

Nightowl1701 wrote:

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Are they sweeping it under the rug? Or is this their way of making sure that only the bad guys in the next film have it and not our heroes? All the better to, say, pull an out-of-nowhere attack on the Enterprise from the inside out...

It would be hilarious if in the next film there's a line like "We can't, we're out of transporter range."

[Therin of Andor]

JarodRussell wrote:

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It would be hilarious if in the next film there's a line like "We can't, we're out of transporter range."

What's the problem? It's not like long-range transwarp beaming suddenly become a totally safe and reliable method of transporting sentient, humanoid life.

I picked up my issue of the tribbles conclusion yesterday. A few very funny gags in it that made me remember that they hard a hard act to follow: creating a new first tribbles story that had enough of the tone of both the original and the DS9 episode. The tugging on Scotty's legs was hilarious!

Pauln6 wrote:

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I would have liked to see Chapel, a research biologist...

Theory: If they intend to add Chapel to the new movie, they'll want her to resemble whichever actress is playing the role.

We know, via Orci, that Rand is not in the sequel, hence she's getting coverage in the comics.