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Old July 26 2012, 01:45 AM   #361
The Wormhole
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
If you want Archer to be president then it's just as easy to have him serve his term after the split with the prime universe. In the prime, he was president. In the nu, he wasn't. Easy peasy.
Archer would have been 121 when the timeline split. Even if we're accepting that he did live that long, do we really believe that someone aged 121 would take on the responsibility of not only running an intergalactic alliance, but also campaigning for the position?
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Old July 26 2012, 01:49 AM   #362
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

^And as stated already, Sussman's bio puts Archer's presidency decades before the timeline split.
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Old July 26 2012, 02:06 AM   #363
RPJOB
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
If you want Archer to be president then it's just as easy to have him serve his term after the split with the prime universe. In the prime, he was president. In the nu, he wasn't. Easy peasy.
Archer would have been 121 when the timeline split. Even if we're accepting that he did live that long, do we really believe that someone aged 121 would take on the responsibility of not only running an intergalactic alliance, but also campaigning for the position?
According to canon we don't know that the president is elected by a popular vote. The position may be voted on by the members of the council, similar to how the speaker of Parlement is chosen. Archer could have been a council member at the time. Let's not forget that Kirk said that T'Pau was the only person to turn down a seat on the federation council. Perhaps the Federation isn't as democratic is we believe.

Christopher wrote: View Post
^And as stated already, Sussman's bio puts Archer's presidency decades before the timeline split.
Sussmans bio isn't seen clearly on screen and is therefore not relavent. It can be used as a source for later additions to canon but in no way is it considered canon by itself. Or are you suggesting that every graphic seen on screen is canon? Does the Enterprise-D actually have a racing car, Nomad and a giant rubber duck on board?
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Old July 26 2012, 02:16 AM   #364
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
^And as stated already, Sussman's bio puts Archer's presidency decades before the timeline split.
I know that, but since RPJOB was already disqualifying that, I decided to point out how unlikely it was that that he could be president after the timeline split.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
If you want Archer to be president then it's just as easy to have him serve his term after the split with the prime universe. In the prime, he was president. In the nu, he wasn't. Easy peasy.
Archer would have been 121 when the timeline split. Even if we're accepting that he did live that long, do we really believe that someone aged 121 would take on the responsibility of not only running an intergalactic alliance, but also campaigning for the position?
According to canon we don't know that the president is elected by a popular vote. The position may be voted on by the members of the council, similar to how the speaker of Parlement is chosen. Archer could have been a council member at the time. Let's not forget that Kirk said that T'Pau was the only person to turn down a seat on the federation council. Perhaps the Federation isn't as democratic is we believe.
Jaresh-Inyo said he was elected.

But regardless, do we really believe a man over 120 would be capable being President of the Federation? 23rd century Starfleet required officers to retire at 75. While it's possible civilian jobs didn't force retirement at that age, I doubt someone 120 would be allowed to take on a stressful, demanding high pressure job that running an interstellar alliance has to be.
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Old July 26 2012, 02:33 AM   #365
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

^Well, Ronald Reagan took office just 17 days before his 70th birthday, which was considered quite old at the time. Although I'm still convinced that he slept through most of his presidency.
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Old July 26 2012, 03:39 AM   #366
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Jaresh-Inyo said he was elected but he didn't say by who. He could have been elected by the council. He might have been appointed to the council by his planetary government with no popular election involved at any step of the process.

The FASA Romulan supplement had a government where the popular vote only occurred at the bottom. The city senate elected members to a regional senate. The regional senate elected members to the district senate and the district elected the planetary senate which then chose one of their own as Praetor. So, everyone may have been elected at some point the average person on the street had no direct voice above the city level.

Elias Vaughn was an active Starfleet officer well into his second century with no mention of retirement. He wasn't seen to be lacking of mind or body even at that advanced age.

And don't forget that the American constitution sets a minimum age for President it doesn't set a maximum.
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Old July 26 2012, 03:41 AM   #367
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
Interesting thought, but I see no reason why a telepathic phenomenon like that would have a lasting effect on biology. And of course there's no reason to bother if Archer didn't actually live that long. Although if we accept Sussman's bio, he did make it to 133, which is almost as old as McCoy.
It doesn't really make sense a telepathic phenomenon could have an affect like that on biology, but maybe it wasn't a biology thing. Maybe it makes their human katras (has it been said humans do or do not have katras anywhere?) stronger, which helps them live longer despite their bodies aging. It could slow down neurological degeneration. McCoy's dialogue in Encounter at Farpoint (I don't care that he wasn't explicitly called McCoy, it was obviously him from touring medbay to refusing the transporter, I'm not going to back down to a maybe on this one) implied that he didn't consider his age an issue, and there is all sorts of documented evidence in the real world about how having a strong will does seem to be a common trait in people living longer than 100.

Sorry, I'm probably approaching some dangerous fanfic realm here, it's just idle speculation. It would be interesting if someone did explore the long term affects of a human carrying around a Vulcan katra. We know that Archer knew how to do mind melds correctly even if he couldn't do them himself, so there seem to be some long term effects. I haven't read any of the Star Trek books set in the movie area that dealt with McCoy and this stuff that I can remember, but maybe there was something.

I agree with you about the insane number of Enterprise crew living (and serving) into their advanced years. Life expectancy when you are constantly at the center of intergalactic conflict, contract numerous unknown plagues, sometimes even actually perishing now and then only to come back to life, etc etc, was extremely short for some parts of the crew, yet somehow the ones we care about always avoided the worst well into senior citizen territory. Beyond that for some, how many of the bridge crew from TOS were still around in TNG a hundred years later? The concussions alone that all of these characters received should land most of them in a rest home by the age of 60.
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Old July 26 2012, 04:07 AM   #368
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Jaresh-Inyo said he was elected but he didn't say by who. He could have been elected by the council. He might have been appointed to the council by his planetary government with no popular election involved at any step of the process.

The FASA Romulan supplement had a government where the popular vote only occurred at the bottom. The city senate elected members to a regional senate. The regional senate elected members to the district senate and the district elected the planetary senate which then chose one of their own as Praetor. So, everyone may have been elected at some point the average person on the street had no direct voice above the city level.

Elias Vaughn was an active Starfleet officer well into his second century with no mention of retirement. He wasn't seen to be lacking of mind or body even at that advanced age.

And don't forget that the American constitution sets a minimum age for President it doesn't set a maximum.
Does that wonky Decandido book adress how the pres is electd?

Articles of the Federation is maybe its title.

Also how can i get an avatar?
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Old July 26 2012, 04:25 AM   #369
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn was an active Starfleet officer well into his second century with no mention of retirement. He wasn't seen to be lacking of mind or body even at that advanced age.
But I seem to recall it was mentioned that not many Starfleet officers were still working in Starfleet by that age.

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Does that wonky Decandido book adress how the pres is electd?

Articles of the Federation is maybe its title.
Why is it "wonky"? It was a fine novel.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Arti...the_Federation

Also how can i get an avatar?
Patience.
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Old July 26 2012, 04:28 AM   #370
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

iarann wrote: View Post
It doesn't really make sense a telepathic phenomenon could have an affect like that on biology, but maybe it wasn't a biology thing. Maybe it makes their human katras (has it been said humans do or do not have katras anywhere?) stronger, which helps them live longer despite their bodies aging. It could slow down neurological degeneration.
I don't see how that could work. Does the right kind of software in your computer keep the keys from breaking off or the contacts from getting corroded? Only some life-threatening medical problems can be attributed to the condition of the brain or nerves.


McCoy's dialogue in Encounter at Farpoint (I don't care that he wasn't explicitly called McCoy, it was obviously him from touring medbay to refusing the transporter, I'm not going to back down to a maybe on this one)
Why do people keep talking like that's analogous? I've already said: In the case of "Farpoint," all the visual and verbal evidence, plus common sense, points emphatically toward it being Leonard McCoy. Everything about it is consistent with it being Leonard McCoy, and there's no good argument against it being Leonard McCoy. So that is by far the most likely interpretation in that case. But in the case of the movie, the only evidence we have is the name "Admiral Archer" and the mention of beagles, and that is not enough evidence to conclude that it's more likely to be Jonathan than a descendant. They fall out in opposite directions because of the different quantities and types of evidence. They're two very different situations.


and there is all sorts of documented evidence in the real world about how having a strong will does seem to be a common trait in people living longer than 100.
First off, "strong will" is not a clearly defined medical quantity, so that sounds more anecdotal than anything else. Second, even if we accept the premise, just because the two appear to be correlated, that doesn't prove that strong will causes longevity. It could be the other way around, that people naturally get stronger-willed as they get older. It could be that strong will is correlated with staying active and taking responsibility for your health, so that on the average, strong-willed people have a greater likelihood of avoiding serious illness or growing decrepit.

I will grant that "will to live" can play a factor in one's odds of survival from a serious illness. I have personal experience to suggest that, and there are abundant anecdotal accounts of elderly or ill people choosing to hang onto life until a certain goal was reached and then just letting go. But that doesn't mean that willpower can literally slow down the biological clock and give someone decades more life than they otherwise would have.


Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Does that wonky Decandido book adress how the pres is electd?

Articles of the Federation is maybe its title.
Actually the presidential election was in the preceding novel, TNG: A Time for War, A Time for Peace. AotF was a spinoff/sequel to that book.

And Therin, I think he's using "wonky" in the sense of a "policy wonk," i.e. an expert on governmental policy, political procedure, etc., rather than in the British sense of "wonky" as shaky or unreliable. I think the term "wonk" first became common in American political discourse during Bill Clinton's campaign and presidency, in reference to the extremely detailed policy statements he'd make during the campaign. Instead of just giving homilies and generalizations during debates, when asked a question he'd go into an in-depth discussion of policy and principles and plans. Mr. Obama is much the same way, and so was practically every character on The West Wing.
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Old July 26 2012, 05:24 AM   #371
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post

Why do people keep talking like that's analogous? I've already said: In the case of "Farpoint," all the visual and verbal evidence, plus common sense, points emphatically toward it being Leonard McCoy. Everything about it is consistent with it being Leonard McCoy, and there's no good argument against it being Leonard McCoy. So that is by far the most likely interpretation in that case. But in the case of the movie, the only evidence we have is the name "Admiral Archer" and the mention of beagles, and that is not enough evidence to conclude that it's more likely to be Jonathan than a descendant. They fall out in opposite directions because of the different quantities and types of evidence. They're two very different situations.
Look at it this way. Is it possible, just possible, for someone to write an episode or a novel or whatever and reveal that it wasn't McCoy without changing or ignoring any of the evidence presented on screen? He's never referred to by name, not even in the credits. He's simply listed as The Admiral.

On the other hand, is it also possible that a later novel or movie could reveal that the beagle did indeed belong to the same Jonathan Archer that starred on Enterprise?

One may be a 3 Sigma event and the other may be a 4 Sigma but in neither case can you say with 100% certainty that it is this and not that.

Is it likely that it was McCoy? Yes, very likely. Was it Archer? Not as likely but still within the realm of possibility, especially within the realm of the Star Trek universe. There are always possibilities.

In regards to Archer being too old to be president, Chekov was born in the prime universe in 2245. He was still on active duty until 2277 when he formally retired at the age of 132. Uhura is still active AFAIK and she is older than Chekov. Sulu's fate is unknown.
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Old July 26 2012, 06:13 AM   #372
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't see how that could work. Does the right kind of software in your computer keep the keys from breaking off or the contacts from getting corroded?
Nope, but with the right kind of software, properly regulating the hardware such as the CPU and making more efficient use of power to keep heat down, you can certainly affect how long a computer can last. To make it simpler analogy for those that don't manage servers for a living, if you have an Xbox game that is constantly accessing the DVD drive, you are going to burn out the drive a lot faster than something designed properly so it loads everything to your hard drive. This is also why it's a bad idea to use the PS3 as a blu-ray player, you can buy a separate blu-ray player now for far cheaper than it costs to repair the PS3, and if you watch movies (especially ones you burned to DVD yourself) you are going to wear that drive out much quicker than if you used it as a game console.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Why do people keep talking like that's analogous?
I don't, I agreed with you on this point. Someone else made the comment that we can't be sure it was McCoy, I was making that statement in reference to them, not your own comments.

You seem to equate me with people who take their own fan theories as gospel rather than a way to try to understand something on screen. I wasn't making statements that I take as fact, just possible solutions to a problem (think what Q was looking for in "All Good Things...") and I'm not sure why that causes such an issue.
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Old July 26 2012, 11:19 AM   #373
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

RPJOB wrote: View Post
We don't know how long Scotty has been on Delta Vega.
In the movie he says six months.
Perhaps Archer died before he rescinded the order and nobody has had any reason to change it now. He might have been there for a decade or longer. The whole Delta Vega sequence is full of strange stuff. Why is Scotty out of food if Vulcan is (was) close enough that Spock could see the planet when it was destroyed?
It was a punishment duty. Hence him "...living off Starfleet protein nibs"
Why does Scotty just leave with Kirk, abandoning his post to a Vulcan he's never seen before.
Because the fate of the galaxy's at stake and he can help? And the Enterprise's original engineer was a total idiot who managed to get himself killed by not opening his parachute when he should have.
And what exactly is Scotty doing there anyway? It just looks like a "hind-end of space" ?
Manning a mostly-automated Starfleet outpost as punishment for getting Admiral Archer's beagle killed (or not, according to the end of the novelization)
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Old July 26 2012, 02:34 PM   #374
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

Manning a mostly-automated Starfleet outpost as punishment for getting Admiral Archer's beagle killed (or not, according to the end of the novelization) __________________
I think IDW will give us that story soon.
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Old July 26 2012, 04:41 PM   #375
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Re: NEW ONGOING STAR TREK SERIES FROM IDW!!!

An upcoming IDW comic will feature Scotty's first meeting with Keenser!
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