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Old August 1 2011, 11:21 PM   #46
Temis the Vorta
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Old Spock didn't even care about the dead Vulcans, and he was from the real Trek Universe!
That Vulcan wasn't "his" Vulcan, and why should he get more upset about it being blown up, versus any other planet in either of the two realities? For him to be upset because they are Vulcans is sorta racist. Would he have cared less if they'd been Tellarites?

Also, Spock might have deduced that if there are three realities (gotta count the MU), then it stands to reason there are many more, which supports the the Many Worlds theory, which means there are an infinite number of realities, which means that any thing that can happen, must happen in at least one.

Therefore, it is required by the laws of physics that Vulcan be blown up in at least one reality, so there's no point crying over it, just because the reality you're in is the reality in which it happens (especially if it's not even your original reality!) Knowing that there is an infinity of other Vulcans bopping around out there should soften the blow. So it's completely illogical for Spock to get emotional about any of this.

And if Spock travels in time within the Abrams U to un-blow-up Vulcan, that means some other Vulcan in some other reality is required to blow up instead. Why save one Vulcan merely to destroy another? Not very logical.

As for the others, there's no reason to believe that they know time travel is about as exotic as going to the corner store. As far as we know, they've never done it before. Maybe there's some reason that time travel works "different" in the Abrams U (other than the reset button being useful for TV plots but not so much for movie plots).

And if it works different, fine by me. Time travel should be hard to initiate and harder to reproduce, so you can avoid the "why don't they just go back in time" quibble, which renders everything ridiculous.

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Old August 1 2011, 11:33 PM   #47
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

"Jim, my entire planet was just destroyed. I am emotionally compromised."

His voice broke when he said that. There was strong emotional transfer from the mind-meld. Spock wasn't emotionless about it, just excercising common Vulcan self-control.

As to why they didn't try to fix the damage - they don't really have the means. That, and the temporal prime directive would prohibit them from travelling back a few years, destroying the unattended Narada and nuking Rura Penthe from orbit.
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Old August 2 2011, 05:33 PM   #48
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

^No it wouldn't. Janeway had no issue with breaking it, as for means the old fashioned sling shot around a star.
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Old August 2 2011, 09:46 PM   #49
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Not so much a series, more the odd feature-length animation based on the Shatnerverse novels. Sort of in the spirit of WB's various Batman and other superhero efforts on DVD. Sort of Clone Wars in what are potentially lost entries in the film series.

The Ashes of Eden is perfect. While mostly set between VI and the Generations opening scenes, it's framed at the beginning and end, with Spock visiting Kirk's grave and Starfleet carving up the Enterprise's saucer section - removing any evidence for Veridians to find. It also has that moment set during Kirk's younger days going up against the Vampire Cloud. I'd get Chris Pine to provide the voice for that part. Various TOS cast members back in their roles, with likely impersonators for Scotty and McCoy. It was done as a graphic novel and I loved that the villain was human and an old rival of Kirk's. Pulling the Enterprise-A out of mothballs and having it go down fighting, IIRC against Excelsior and the rest of Starfleet.

Then do The Return but some adjustment here and there to make it better. I like its mix of Kirk and Spock alongside a TNG crew (split between differing new assignments after Generations) plus Bashir & Quark putting in a cameo. The female Romulan with a grudge against Kirk, enough to go grave robbing and use him in her plan is a solid idea. Even the alliance with the Borg is interesting, going along with her aim - have Kirk conditioned enough to kill Picard. At this stage in TNG, they would want their one weakness - the knowledge he retained as Locutus, taken out. That's a novel way to tantalise the Kirk v Picard crowd, even if it's a showdown we're ultimately deprived of. I'd probably rework this to include the launch of the Enterprise E somehow, given it's set between TNG films - rather than the Defiant-class ship that's temporarily given the name toward the end. Plus the Borg homeworld being the machine planet V'Ger encountered is perhaps one element of fanwank too far. I'd continue to keep the Borg Queen out of this... as the book did. Written before First Contact reached the screen, she hadn't even been thought of and I preferred the Borg back before she was around anyway. With their assimilation of a key person as mouthpiece, a Romulan called Vox in this case.

The style of those two books lend themselves well to animation, not being at all challenging or cerebral - just action adventure. Ashes I remember looking impressive as panels, flowing one after another in a comic. The Kirk-centric plot is advantageous in the current climate, while involving the TNG crew and even a shout out to DS9 offers fans of other generations something for afters. Between the two adventures, it covers all the bases of having some audience familiarity. Dare I say even 15 years on.

Get an agreement from CBS to do those two stories and hope to get around to adapting Avenger. If the first doesn't meet with the kind of success they expect - ratings, DVD/Blu ray sales, downloads whatever - further rewrite The Return to rush Kirk back to full heath by the end, alive and well in the 24th Century. Then consider it job done - two animated movies that redeem Generations, by exorcising the death of Kirk so many (even those involved) regret.

At least the effort will make the wait between Abramsverse films more bearable, while adding something else to reinterest fans in the back catalogue of TOS/TNG already seen countless times over.
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Last edited by ChristopherPike; August 3 2011 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Halfway through editing, lost connection and couldn't get back into the site.
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Old August 3 2011, 12:22 AM   #50
Temis the Vorta
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
"Jim, my entire planet was just destroyed. I am emotionally compromised."
I forget, which one said that - old Spock or young Spock? Because that wasn't old Spock's planet, and young Spock doesn't necessarily know how to time travel (which as far as we know, has never been done in the Abrams U).
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Old August 3 2011, 02:02 AM   #51
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
"Jim, my entire planet was just destroyed. I am emotionally compromised."
I forget, which one said that - old Spock or young Spock? Because that wasn't old Spock's planet, and young Spock doesn't necessarily know how to time travel (which as far as we know, has never been done in the Abrams U).
Old Spock. Nimoy says it in front of Pine, with Pegg nearby. He's trying to get Young Kirk into the Captain's chair, and tipping him off on how best to make his younger self lose control. So I guess he's retroactively imagining how such an event would've impacted on him.

Of course from Old Spock's perspective, Kirk shouldn't even be on the Enterprise, let alone her Captain... but needs must when Nero drives. I guess.

When it was all over, Pike should have returned back to that chair... but I guess Kirk was destined to bring balance to the Force. Sorry, I mean destined to become Captain of the Enterprise!

Damn that Star Wars generation of kids working in Tinsletown and their hold over popular movie culture. *shakes fist* As soon as George Lucas snuffs it, I hope somebody comes along and reboots their franchise... injecting a bit more Trek science and technobabble. They should base it on what Marty McFly once said about Darth Vader being from the planet Vulcan too. Luke Skywalker should be recast ten years younger than Mark Hamill was or possibly even changed to a girl. Skywalker will spend years training to be a jedi and much drama will be gleaned from him failing his entrance exams several times. The new Han Solo ought to shoot Chewbacca first. And Tattoine should be sucked into a black hole half way through A Nu-New Hope, taking C3PO with it. Both having been a complete waste of space the first time around. Weirdly though, the writers will actually convince Harrison Ford to be in it. Go figure. It'll be a fun enjoyable movie by Hollywood 2030 standards, praised for revitalising proper Star Wars. Despite what those nutjobs who permanently go around looking like Darth Maul might tell you!


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Old August 3 2011, 02:54 PM   #52
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
"Jim, my entire planet was just destroyed. I am emotionally compromised."
I forget, which one said that - old Spock or young Spock? Because that wasn't old Spock's planet, and young Spock doesn't necessarily know how to time travel (which as far as we know, has never been done in the Abrams U).
Old Spock said it about young Spock. Old Spock never said he was emotionally compromised himself, just that he knew how young Spock would be reacting. The only indication of old Spock's emotional state was the line about emotional transference and mind melds.
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Old August 3 2011, 08:01 PM   #53
Temis the Vorta
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Luke Skywalker should be recast ten years younger than Mark Hamill was or possibly even changed to a girl.
Didn't Lucas want Luke to be a girl to begin with? And you're inadvertently describing Ahsoka Tano, who is turning out to be a great character.

You're also getting your wish about Star Wars being rebooted, it's happening right now with The Clone Wars, in which Dave Filoni is busy repairing most of the nonsense that Lucas put into the PT, chiefly by rewriting Anakin (he's not a stupid whiny little emo punk anymore!) as well as his motivation (the PT motivation hinges on him being a stupid emo punk, soooo...), and fleshing out the politics to give it more plausibility.

About the only thing they haven't set right is the way the good guys are the ones cloning sentient beings as cannon fodder (!!!) but that would require a wholesale revision of the premise. I guess we can rationalize it away if the Republic sees the clones as being on the same level as droids, who after all, also behave like sentient beings but are treated like objects. We can't expect these people's values to be exactly the same as ours, after all.

You should watch The Clone Wars and gloat. But I guess it's not as much fun, considering that Lucas is overseeing the reboot on his own material. Maybe TCW is what he meant all along, or it's what he thinks he meant all along, now that even he has realized how badly the PT sucked.
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Old August 8 2011, 03:43 PM   #54
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Seems like Orci and Kurtzman are really serious about doing a Trek animated series.
Courtesy of the My Geek Time radio show:
ORCI: We have asked about [an animated Star Trek series]. We have asked what the rights are and who owns it and what are the possibilities. It is a very early – kind of “is this a possibility?” and we are waiting to hear back. But we would love to do it.

KURTZMAN: We just had the experience of doing Transformers: Prime on The Hub. We learned a lot from that experience and it would be cool to do something like that from Trek.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/...imated-series/

Doesn't mean that it'll happen--CBS can still say "sorry, not interested"--but if an animated series is an idea that CBS might like, well...
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Old August 8 2011, 04:37 PM   #55
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

One of the pair, Roberto Orci, likes to hang out at Trekmovie.com.

So you know, hop along there and pitch your ideas for a Riker & Troi sit-com etc, in case he bites!

No point getting your hopes up for anything old school I'd imagine. It's more likely they have everything already mapped out and all their own creation, so they don't have to negotiate the rights to characters created by Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, or whoever. Not that those guys exactly need the money or prestige of an Executive Consultant credit. Although in my opinion, they really need somebody acting as the dissenting voice... against any Star Wars-ification of Trek. Even if their only job is to be the disenfranchised curmudgeon proposals are shown to, then have their objections ignored, like the Harve Bennett movie-era reduced Gene Roddenberry to. Just advantageous to get somebody more interested in protecting what they're passionate about and less about blowing smoke, because it can affect their career.

I could see Manny Coto or D.C. Fontana being the right people to bring in and keep it in the Star Trek-style. Or else it just becomes another Saturday morning shoot-em up that brings on epileptic seizures.

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Old August 8 2011, 05:00 PM   #56
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Python Trek wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Python Trek wrote: View Post
It has yet to be explained to my satisfaction why no one tried to undo what Nero did.
The time travel philosophy in that movie was starkly different from the usual reset-button routine established by the TV series. It is questionable why the logic is suddenly different (no reset buttons allowed in this parallel reality?) but I'm so damn sick of the cheap out of the reset button that I was happy to ignore it.

Also, the reset-button logic hasn't been followed consistent on TV either - there are probably a dozen ways by which time travel has been depicted, yet Our Heroes have forgotten every one of them? the number of things they could be setting right stretches to infinity - so fretting about continuity is particularly useless when it comes to time travel.
But no one TRIED to undo the damage. No one gave a fuck. That's what I was talking about, not some "reset button'.

It was a bad movie, and I found its "heroes" to be quite unimpressive. Old Spock didn't even care about the dead Vulcans, and he was from the real Trek Universe! Pitiful writing.
The reset button is a temporal illusion. If Spock travelled back in time the most he could do is help get those 10,000 survivors off planet as part of a pre-destination paradox. If he were to go back and save the planet, all he would be doing would be jumping into a parallel reality where the planet was never destroyed. That's fine for the viewer who wants Vulcan to survive and fine for Spock, who has genuinely saved lives but it doesn't change the fact that all those people still died in the 'original' alternate reality.
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Old August 8 2011, 08:29 PM   #57
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Python Trek wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Python Trek wrote: View Post
It has yet to be explained to my satisfaction why no one tried to undo what Nero did.
The time travel philosophy in that movie was starkly different from the usual reset-button routine established by the TV series.
But no one TRIED to undo the damage. No one gave a fuck. That's what I was talking about, not some "reset button'.
Have you tried to undo the damage to the World Trade Towers?

Why not?

I still blame Han Solo for not un-destroying Alderaan, myself. What kind of "heroes" are those?

Thank god the writers didn't hit the reset button on this one; it makes future installments potentially much more interesting.
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Old August 8 2011, 09:20 PM   #58
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Dennis wrote: View Post
Have you tried to undo the damage to the World Trade Towers?

Why not?
Because none of us can travel back in time?

If you know a way of travelling back in time and are holding out on us, that's great, but the majority of humanity are generally unable to retroactively stop terrorist activities.

Thank god the writers didn't hit the reset button on this one;
Given the time travel logic the film used it actually wouldn't matter if they did.

The universe of the new Star Trek film is an alternate universe. Even if you un-blew up Romulus, this universe would continue to exist. If you stopped Nero from blowing up Vulcan, a universe where Nero blew up Vulcan - the universe of Our Heroes - is still there.
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Old August 8 2011, 11:13 PM   #59
Temis the Vorta
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Seems like Orci and Kurtzman are really serious about doing a Trek animated series.
Courtesy of the My Geek Time radio show:
ORCI: We have asked about [an animated Star Trek series]. We have asked what the rights are and who owns it and what are the possibilities. It is a very early – kind of “is this a possibility?” and we are waiting to hear back. But we would love to do it.

KURTZMAN: We just had the experience of doing Transformers: Prime on The Hub. We learned a lot from that experience and it would be cool to do something like that from Trek.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/...imated-series/

Doesn't mean that it'll happen--CBS can still say "sorry, not interested"--but if an animated series is an idea that CBS might like, well...
An animated series along the lines of The Clone Wars would be a far smaller risk than a live-action space opera series. I can see why CBS would shy away from the latter, but an animated series is almost like picking up free money. Why the heck not do it? Sell it off to the Cartoon Network and run it back to back with The Clone Wars, with the same emphasis on fun action, kid- and grownup-friendly stories, and spectacular alien worlds and animals.

As long as Kurtzman and Orci don't lose interest for some reason, I'd say an animated series is looking very likely now. Certainly a lot likelier than a live-action series anytime soon. Not that one precludes the other...the more success Star Trek has, the more Star Trek we'll get.

As for the animated series topic, it's almost certainly going to be the movie characters, voiced by sound-alikes or possibly by the same actors if they can swing it. To the extent we'll be able to tell what universe it's in, it'll be in the Abrams U, if only because Kirk will look like Chris Pine and not a young William Shatner, and the ship aesthetics will hew to Trek XI.

The whole value of animation is that it's a cost-effective way to get Kirk and Spock back into a TV series with the Enterprise and everyone going boldly. I can't imagine why anyone would greenlight any other topic, considering that with animation, no premise would be more or less expensive to produce than any other. Why not go for the one that's bound to make the most money?

Back to the time travel discussion:

The reset button is a temporal illusion. If Spock travelled back in time the most he could do is help get those 10,000 survivors off planet as part of a pre-destination paradox. If he were to go back and save the planet, all he would be doing would be jumping into a parallel reality where the planet was never destroyed.
This is a favorite "joke theory" of mine, that all the reset button episodes are exercises in self-delusion, but I'd never expect Star Trek to seriously take that perspective since it turns the characters into dolts.
The universe of the new Star Trek film is an alternate universe. Even if you un-blew up Romulus, this universe would continue to exist. If you stopped Nero from blowing up Vulcan, a universe where Nero blew up Vulcan - the universe of Our Heroes - is still there.
Yeah - to save Romulus, the characters need to be able to jump back into the Prime Universe. Nobody knows how to do that. To save Vulcan, the characters need to be able to travel in time within their own universe. Old Spock does know how to do that - he should know several methods - but it isn't certain whether time travel works the same in the new universe as it did in the old, and anyway, why haven't characters in the Prime U been using time travel on a regular basis to fix bad things that happen? Presumably, there's some risk involved.
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Old August 9 2011, 12:19 AM   #60
C.E. Evans
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Re: A New Modern Trek Animated Series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Seems like Orci and Kurtzman are really serious about doing a Trek animated series.
Courtesy of the My Geek Time radio show:
ORCI: We have asked about [an animated Star Trek series]. We have asked what the rights are and who owns it and what are the possibilities. It is a very early – kind of “is this a possibility?” and we are waiting to hear back. But we would love to do it.

KURTZMAN: We just had the experience of doing Transformers: Prime on The Hub. We learned a lot from that experience and it would be cool to do something like that from Trek.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/...imated-series/

Doesn't mean that it'll happen--CBS can still say "sorry, not interested"--but if an animated series is an idea that CBS might like, well...
An animated series along the lines of The Clone Wars would be a far smaller risk than a live-action space opera series. I can see why CBS would shy away from the latter, but an animated series is almost like picking up free money. Why the heck not do it? Sell it off to the Cartoon Network and run it back to back with The Clone Wars, with the same emphasis on fun action, kid- and grownup-friendly stories, and spectacular alien worlds and animals.
It totally depends on what CBS wants to do with Star Trek. It may be their position that any TV series--live or animated--while the movies are running could dillute the brand just as it's back on its feet. It doesn't matter what fans think [CBS] should do if their stance is no to any Trek on TV for the foreseeable future.
As long as Kurtzman and Orci don't lose interest for some reason, I'd say an animated series is looking very likely now. Certainly a lot likelier than a live-action series anytime soon. Not that one precludes the other...the more success Star Trek has, the more Star Trek we'll get.

As for the animated series topic, it's almost certainly going to be the movie characters, voiced by sound-alikes or possibly by the same actors if they can swing it. To the extent we'll be able to tell what universe it's in, it'll be in the Abrams U, if only because Kirk will look like Chris Pine and not a young William Shatner, and the ship aesthetics will hew to Trek XI.
I'm less inclined to believe such a project will be Star Trek XI: The Animated Series and more like something that will stand on its own in the way Transformers: Prime kind of does with tweaked character and mechanical designs for animation. We could wind up with a brown-haired and gold-shirted Kirk that looks like neither Chris Pine or a young William Shatner and an even more tricked-out Enterprise, IMO.
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