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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old October 10 2011, 08:26 AM   #1
Malleus
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The chemistry behind BONC (P/C): reflection

Without some politicking behind the scenes, the writers intended to build upon the foundations that the first season set for the character chemistry between the Captain and the Doctor and for the acting chemistry between the two actors.

The other flings Picard gets into come across as a bit forced, and so do some of Dr. Crusher's more serious moments over a tendency towards humour. What do you think?

Last edited by Holdfast; October 12 2011 at 10:33 PM.
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Old October 10 2011, 03:11 PM   #2
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

I actually thought that Stewart and McFadden had a lot of great, natural chemistry. If it looked forced, and I can't entirely disagree with that in every case, I think that the problem was how little their characters' relationship actually was developed during the series. Although there are moments here and there from seasons 1 though 6 (excepting season 2), there wasn't any serious treatment of their relationship until season 7. It was clear to me that even at that time, the writers/producers/etc. weren't committed to taking the relationship to a particular place, whether that meant pursuing it seriously or cutting it out of the narrative.

I think this was a big missed opportunity. From what I understand, the relationship was stunted in its development after the series was over because they wanted to leave the door open for Picard to have other relationships in the movies. I really believe that effort fell very flat in the end--Insurrection wasn't a great movie (my apologies to anyone who really liked it), and the other three films did not feature much romantic development of any kind for Picard. I think that if the fans were asked what they preferred, knowing where the studio's intentions didn't ultimately go or go well when they did, no one would have felt a lack of excitement over the films if Picard was involved with Dr. Crusher and didn't have the opportunity to get involved with other people.

I mean, hey--they wrote Riker and Troi's marriage into it, and, at the end of the series, Troi was with Worf! (I do know that Worf wound up married to Dax on DS9)
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Old October 10 2011, 05:20 PM   #3
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

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Old October 10 2011, 06:18 PM   #4
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

You know, I've always wondered that myself?

Back to the OP:

I love both the Picard and Crusher characters. The two of them have a nice chemistry on screen that comes across as a very warm, comfortable friendship. Romantically, not so much. Their interactions in 'The Naked Now" came across as embarrassingly silly and sophomoric. Of course, it was supposed to be silly and sophomoric since they were both stoned off their *sses. I understand that P/C is a preferred romantic pairing. However, in my opinion as a romantic pairing they really don't bring anything special out in each other. To quote Q, "This human emotion, love, it's a dangerous thing, Picard and obviously you're ill-equipped to handle it. She's found a vulnerability in you, a vulnerability I've been looking for for years." You don't see that vulnerability in Picard in regards to Crusher. Picard treats Crusher no differently than he would treat any of his other officers.

"Captain's Holiday" shows a relaxed, off-duty Jean-Luc Picard flirting and making love to Vash (to the point allowed by network sensors anyway). They have amazing sexual chemistry and sparks fly when they bicker with each other, culminating in the way he bellows at her about the dangers involved in going to Sarthong V. In "Qpid" we see how Picard is prone to taking extreme actions concerning Vash, storming a castle single handily and running Sir Guy through with a broad sword while the two men duel over her. This was Q's point to Picard in "Qpid" when he says, "Sadly, they're all fine... but the point is they could have been killed, and you might have been too... all for the Love Of A Maid."

In "Lessons" we see Picard flirting and making love to Nella Daren (again to the point allowed by network sensors). The chemistry isn't as fiery as it is with Vash, the interplay is a bit more subdued but he is obviously smitten. However the sorrow is palpable as Picard shuts down when it is believed she is dead on the planet. When she returns, Picard tells her in a quiet impassioned voice, "I've lost people under my command, people who were very dear to me. But never someone I've been in love with." He goes on to say, "I knew I could never again put your life in jeopardy."

Of all the people on the Enterprise (series regulars) I think Picard's relationship with Guinan is the most intense with far and away the most chemistry. He is shown to take her word on anything, over everything. He removes the "command mask" more with her than anyone else onboard. Picard's most tender moment in my opinion is in "Time's Arrow" part 2, when he stays behind to make sure an injured Guinan is all right. He cradles her in his lap and strokes her cheek and tells her "I didn't want anything to happen to you. You're far too important to me." When she asks if they become friends, he replies, "It goes far beyond friendship."

One of the reasons I chose to write the Picard/Vash pairing was the wonderful dynamics between Picard and Vash. The sparks created by their compelling 'battle of wills' dynamic makes the pairing particularly intriguing and just a lot of fun to write. Picard/Guinan would have been my second choice.

Warmest Wishes,
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Last edited by Whoa Nellie; October 10 2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old October 10 2011, 08:37 PM   #5
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

Bicyclists of Nevada County.
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Old October 10 2011, 08:58 PM   #6
Malleus
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

Beverly On Jean-Luc
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Old October 10 2011, 09:36 PM   #7
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

I thought it was Beers of North Carolina, but then again, I guess that would have taken chemistry in an entirely different direction.

On topic. I don't really think there is much to add to what Whoa Nellie had to say. That pretty much summed it up.

Last edited by Christmas Clark; October 10 2011 at 10:52 PM.
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Old October 10 2011, 09:58 PM   #8
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Malleus wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

Beverly On Jean-Luc
uhm...yeah, that's so obvious now.

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Old October 10 2011, 10:18 PM   #9
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Malleus wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

Beverly On Jean-Luc
Someone needs to study some acronyms, methinks.
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Old October 10 2011, 10:26 PM   #10
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
I love both the Picard and Crusher characters. The two of them have a nice chemistry on screen that comes across as a very warm, comfortable friendship. However, in my opinion as a romantic pairing they really don't bring anything special out in each other.
I see this as a failing of the writers of the series, actually, rather than a failing in the actors. I think it felt "odd" to see their relationship develop in the seventh season after five previous seasons of the type of friendship you describe. If there had been more frequent, more dramatic and truly telling scenes or storylines featuring the two of them prior to that time, and even the ones in the seventh season are a little anti-climactic, we may feel differently about it. I find myself occasionally a big fan of their having a romantic relationship and occasionally a big fan of their staying friends when I re-watch the show.

I never liked the Vash character, but not because she was supposed to be a "bad girl." If she were a "bad girl," I felt she was a boring one--but that's just my opinion. It has been a long time since I watched either of the episodes she is in. I did like Nella Darin quite a bit, though, and I think she may have made a really interesting, more long term cast member.

I entirely agree with your assessment of Guinan, though, and I really wish that we learned more about her and her relationship with Picard in the series. I have always felt that their encounter in the two parts of "Time's Arrow" never fully explained anything more than when Guinan first came into contact with Picard.
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Old October 11 2011, 12:53 PM   #11
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Dr. Crusher wrote: View Post
I see this as a failing of the writers of the series, actually, rather than a failing in the actors.
Indeed, Gates McFadden wanted a more comedic aspect to Dr. Crusher.

I think it felt "odd" to see their relationship develop in the seventh season after five previous seasons of the type of friendship you describe. If there had been more frequent, more dramatic and truly telling scenes or storylines featuring the two of them prior to that time, and even the ones in the seventh season are a little anti-climactic, we may feel differently about it. I find myself occasionally a big fan of their having a romantic relationship and occasionally a big fan of their staying friends when I re-watch the show.
I think the fifth season, and not so much the sixth season, was disappointing. Beyond Unification, there weren't enough episodes for character development.
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Old October 12 2011, 07:10 PM   #12
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Gates does comedy very well and can be quite sexy in that kind of ep. Well. to me she's always sexy.

The comedic eps she participated in showed her gift for lighter material.

I always felt (despite all the hate directed toward the character) that Majel Barrett's true gift was comedy as Mrs. Troi.
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Old October 12 2011, 07:24 PM   #13
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC: reflection

Malleus wrote: View Post
od0_ital wrote: View Post
What the hell does "BONC" stand for?

Beverly On Jean-Luc
One of the stupidest things I've ever read.
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Old October 13 2011, 01:11 PM   #14
Malleus
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC (P/C): reflection

Saxman1 wrote: View Post
Gates does comedy very well and can be quite sexy in that kind of ep. Well. to me she's always sexy.

The comedic eps she participated in showed her gift for lighter material.
I can't help but think of the episodes "The Big Goodbye," "Remember Me," "Attached," and "All Good Things" as I write this very belated statement on this very day.

It was over a decade ago when I hopped onto the friendship-romance swing between the Captain and the dear Doctor, the overall character of Beverly Crusher, and the appeal of Cheryl Gates McFadden in giving life to the role. In those days past, I argued against underestimating the quality of the pairing relative to other pairings, and I defended the dear Doctor against detractors, especially those firing shots in the doctor wars. To say that I was a big fan on the third part and its multiple aspects, right up to the point of catching posters by surprise with my actress birthday threads, would be an understatement. One need only peek into the TNG recast threads popping up from time to time to read my unrelenting criticisms of proposed recasts for the dear Doctor, from fake-sexy bimbos to fake-hot skanks.

However, the titles of the four episodes I listed say it all. The Big Goodbye happened for me some time ago, though I still cannot help but Remember my being Attached back then. The likelihood of All Good Things coming to an end is high, and this went along with the rule rather than with the exceptions. In the context of the 80s and 90s, no other kind of character could fulfill the doctor's role alongside the kind of characters that made up the rest of the senior officers, and nobody else could bring the character from the script papers to the screen amazingly. On at least four scales of one to ten, I gave her a ten on all and give the experience a ten on all.

During the last decade's middle years, and on this very Bulletin Board System, I wavered by giving a few would-be recasts eleven here and nine there on the scales, sometimes at first sight and always to the point of ignoring acting chemistry problems below the surface. Though they have long since dropped off my radar of recasts, it was only a matter of time before ratings from my perspective would truly be taken to more than the next level.

Some time of lull passed between the height of that competition and the slow but sure process of being definite on recasting, succession, and much more. It took all the late years of the last decade, definitely much more than at first sight, to sort things out. When the dust settled, on all the scales, my ratings have consistently been not just at ten, not just above ten, but rather like Transwarp, Slipstream, and in remembrance of TNG's last episode, Warp 13.

Relative to this and this alone, I'd say: So much for even a fantastically younger version of the gracefully aged McFadden.

Now, my unrelenting criticisms of almost all proposed recasts for the dear doctor are made not so much because they would still be low on the scales and deep in the shadow of the original, but precisely because of the new standards set on the scales and beyond the shadow.

My only regret after this process is not having stated all this last year, perhaps before my hectic move east.



Final note: Special thanks to at least one of the BONCer ladies posting here in my years of wavering for indirectly providing me, in the long run, the equally indirect inspiration to post this.

Last edited by Malleus; October 13 2011 at 02:10 PM.
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Old October 13 2011, 01:24 PM   #15
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Re: The chemistry behind BONC (P/C): reflection

I think many people don't get this but I think the writers never intended for Picard and Beverly to start a relationship. The way I see it Picard and Beverly were two people who deep down loved each other, but there was too much emotional baggage, conflicting feelings and events that got in the way. I like the fact that the writers sort of teased us when Picard and Beverly seemed to get closer, but then something got in the way.

I personally feel that it was one of the most realistic relationships portrayed in Star Trek (with the exception of the O'Brien/Keiko one), because it was smart enough not to do the obvious thing; Picard and Beverly get it on.
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