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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 15 2011, 06:53 AM   #76
BlobVanDam
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Re: '

AviTrek wrote: View Post
jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
I think that season 2's first episode "The Child" would benefit a lot from HD as there is a lot more shadow detail in HD.
See the lighting info about the episode from memory alpha:
[Director Rob]Bowman and director of photography Edward R. Brown experimented with a different, even lower-key than usual style of lighting in this episode. Notably, this is the only episode from the first two seasons where there are no sheets of cardboard on the LCARS displays, which were usually necessitated by the lighting system used. However, Gene Roddenberry and the other producers did not approve of this lighting style, and by the next episode Bowman and Brown reverted to the series' usual style of lighting.
Yes it looked different than the rest of TNG's 7 seasons but it also should show up better in HD than NTSC.
Also people have much better HDTVs than tube televisions from the mid-to-late 1980s capable of displaying higher dynamic ranges.
Actually, a good CRT is going to have better blacks and shadow detail than what's out there today. An HD signal might contain more detail, but in terms of blacks LCDs/Plasmas just can't compare to a good CRT.
I think the entire advantage lies in the signal. NTSC has a narrower colour range, and is just pretty bad all around. I think the better dynamic range of Bluray would more than compensate for the theoretically better black level of the CRT in this case.
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Old May 15 2011, 03:56 PM   #77
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Re: '

AviTrek wrote: View Post
Actually, a good CRT is going to have better blacks and shadow detail than what's out there today. An HD signal might contain more detail, but in terms of blacks LCDs/Plasmas just can't compare to a good CRT.
Good luck seeing them through the scan lines, interlacing, and low refresh rate. There's nothing actually better about CRTs.
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Old May 15 2011, 04:08 PM   #78
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

^ And hardly anybody (actually no company that I'm aware of) makes CRT TVs anymore anyway. Definitely not in HD.
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Old May 15 2011, 04:19 PM   #79
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Re: '

Poopday Machine wrote: View Post
AviTrek wrote: View Post
Actually, a good CRT is going to have better blacks and shadow detail than what's out there today. An HD signal might contain more detail, but in terms of blacks LCDs/Plasmas just can't compare to a good CRT.
Good luck seeing them through the scan lines, interlacing, and low refresh rate. There's nothing actually better about CRTs.
All of these are problems with the older television technology itself, not anything inherently about CRT technology at all. The scan lines were due to the poor resolution of NTSC/PAL, same goes for interlacing and refresh rate. But on a CRT computer monitor for example, these faults mostly don't exist.
CRT televisions died out before the demands of HD and 3D, so the technology of the old TVs is far too outdated to compete with modern flat screens, but the underlying CRT technology itself is still sound, and still has its advantages. You won't find a CRT TV that beats the picture quality of an LCD overall, but there are many other factors at play aside from the CRT technology itself.
CRTs to this day still have advantages over LCDs, although the advantages have dwindled over the past few years. Still not quite to the point that I'm willing to part with my decade old CRT computer monitor yet though.

Anyway, sorry to go off topic with that rant. AviTrek's point still stands.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ And hardly anybody (actually no company that I'm aware of) makes CRT TVs anymore anyway. Definitely not in HD.
And the only ones that are available now (if any) are in the cheapo market, so the quality is actually worse than an older CRT TV. I highly doubt anyone makes them in HD.
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Old May 16 2011, 03:00 AM   #80
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Art Vandelay wrote: View Post
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I've only seen a little of the TOS-R (not in HD) but there were some extreme closeups shots somewhat spolit by being cropped for widescreen.
There was something wrong with the presentation of TOS-R you saw. It should be shown in the original aspect ratio of 4:3. Whoever cropped it to 16:9 messed up.
There were two versions (well, technically three, but that one was never meant to be shown) of TOS-R. The 4:3 version used on the Blu-Rays and a 16:9 version with cropped live-action and expanded CGI effects (the third being a version with the full 4:3 live action and 16:9 effects that was briefly released for downloading in some online shops and was quickly withdrawn.)

A lot of HD syndication channels preferred to buy the cropped version because idiots complain about black bars left and right, which is why it was produced.
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Old May 16 2011, 03:29 AM   #81
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Re: '

jefferiestubes8 wrote: View Post
I think that season 2's first episode "The Child" would benefit a lot from HD as there is a lot more shadow detail in HD.
See the lighting info about the episode from memory alpha:
[Director Rob]Bowman and director of photography Edward R. Brown experimented with a different, even lower-key than usual style of lighting in this episode. Notably, this is the only episode from the first two seasons where there are no sheets of cardboard on the LCARS displays, which were usually necessitated by the lighting system used. However, Gene Roddenberry and the other producers did not approve of this lighting style, and by the next episode Bowman and Brown reverted to the series' usual style of lighting.
Yes it looked different than the rest of TNG's 7 seasons but it also should show up better in HD than NTSC.
Also people have much better HDTVs than tube televisions from the mid-to-late 1980s capable of displaying higher dynamic ranges.
Actually one of the best looking episodes (not a very good hour of tv, but thats a different issue) of early TNG, Damn I miss Bowman.
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Old May 16 2011, 12:36 PM   #82
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

SoM wrote: View Post
A lot of HD syndication channels preferred to buy the cropped version because idiots complain about black bars left and right, which is why it was produced.
The HD remasters of shows like Thunderbirds, and the ground-breaking documentary The World At War were cropped too, and are only available in their mangled form, precisely for this reason. The original DVDs have long since been deleted, and are rather tough to get hold of.

I've got nothing against cropping to 16x9 (I'd actually be interested to see TNG presented like this), but I want the original versions too.
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Old May 16 2011, 04:24 PM   #83
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

SoM wrote: View Post
[There is] a 16:9 version with cropped live-action and expanded CGI effects.

A lot of HD syndication channels preferred to buy the cropped version because idiots complain about black bars left and right, which is why it was produced.
What markets showed this version? I've never seen or heard of it. Too bad this was not presented as a third option on the blu-ray.
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Old May 16 2011, 06:14 PM   #84
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

StewMc wrote: View Post
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Really hope this happens, although HD in pan & scan is kind of an unwanted novelty these days, being so used to 2:35:1 and the other widscreen ratios.

AFAIK, DS9 and Voyager will never happen on Blu-ray as they were shot straight on to video. There are no HD film masters to clean up and transfer.
DS9 and Voyager were shot on film and edited on tape exactly like TNG. As mentioned by someone in the comments over at TrekMovie, the "Making of DS9" book by the Reeves-Stevens goes into some detail on the subject:

Here’s the initial explanation:

“Every physical element of Deep Space Nine is shot on film, not videotape. However, that film is just a first step. As soon as it’s printed, it’s sent to Unitel Video, where it is transferred to D2 videotape. Then the film is put into storage and —provided no disasters occur while an episode is in postproduction—it never sees the light of day again.”

This paragraph points to this footnote:

“In the planning stages of The Next Generation, an important decision was made that still affects Deep Space Nine today. The choice Gene Roddenberry and the production team faced was whether to do the visual effects for the new series using film techniques or on video. Video effects were faster and less costly, but only worked on the television screen. Because of video’s low resolution at the time, there would be no final negative print from which film versions of The Next Generation could be edited together for theatrical release in other countries.

Ultimately, the decision was made to go to video, and Deep Space Nine continues that process today. Thus, although the resolution of the visual effects is much higher today than was possible in 1987, there are no final film prints of any episode of either series, and the episodes cannot be rescanned at the higher resolution necessary for high-definition television broadcast in the future.

Theoretically, it would be possible to return to the original raw film and redo all the visual effects at higher resolution, but such a step would be the equivalent of putting the show through the complete postproduction process again. It will be much less expensive to wait for enhancement technology to be developed so the final video versions of Deep Space Nine episodes can be reprocessed rather than being remade.”
(Thanks to Mark R. Largent over at TrekMovie from which this was shamelessly copied)

EDIT: Beaten to it! Oh well, the above quote is still quite interesting.
I've read that book and paragraph (and bought it used I loved that book.) It seemed to have been written especially for us future fans of HD and Blu-Ray. There's also this page I found a while ago:



I have no doubt that all of the filmed elements can be reused. The resolution may not be the best, but the model effects look great and I would hate losing them. I would hope if they did more CG work than replacing the original CG effects that they don't have the files for or lost filmed effects (more of a problem for DS9 and VOY), they would give the option to see either the original effects in HD and the new effects (obviously also in HD ). Granted, that would double the work, so I'm just hoping they re-composite the filmed elements. It's not like TOS, where the effects were really, really substandard and none of the filmed elements existed (It sounds like, from what the DS9 book says, that the spinoffs saved their elements, but I'm not sure if that changed or what happened since then). Plus, it would lessen Paramount's risk if they not paying even a cheap effects house to redo all the effects when a simple film scan and 10 minutes on a video compositor. Just my own thoughts.

(To compositors: that crack about 10 minutes wasn't meant as an insult to you. It was just meant illustrate how much simpler it would be to composite film elements than go ILM on effects.)
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Old May 17 2011, 12:54 AM   #85
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Doug Otte wrote: View Post
2) Do Netflix streamers really care about picture quality? Wouldn't they just watch the SD original versions of TNG without complaint?
Streaming through my blu-ray to my HD TV, you better believe I care about the picture quality.
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Old May 17 2011, 01:27 AM   #86
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Lateralus wrote: View Post
TNG needs new FX and that's really about it.
No, that's not even close to it.

TOS episodes existed on film. All that was needed was to transfer the episodes to HD and to clean things up a bit.

TNG episodes do not exist on film. They only exist on video tape and the quality of the DVDs cannot be improved on. The way it looks now is the best it can ever look.

The only way to make TNG HD is to recreate every episode from raw film footage. The film still exists, but the film would have to be edited together again from scratch into a completed episode and new FX added. It's not, strictly speaking, going to be a remaster. The completed episodes that exist now can't be remastered in HD.

TOS only had to be transferred again. TNG will have to go through seven years worth of post-production. A much much greater challenge than remastering TOS to HD. How long will that take? Well, it took seven years the first time. (Then again, this time around the audio, music, and sound FX are basically done and won't require the work involved the first time through post-production. Still, make no mistake, this project is going to be much much more labor intensive than remastering TOS was.)
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Old May 17 2011, 12:29 PM   #87
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

Oh I'm up for this, after the fantastic job the did with the original series I'm certainly on board with this if true.
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Old May 17 2011, 03:33 PM   #88
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

I would also love this to be reality, but for now, it's still just a rumor, and any reality will be some time off.
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Old May 17 2011, 06:21 PM   #89
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
The only way to make TNG HD is to recreate every episode from raw film footage. The film still exists, but the film would have to be edited together again from scratch into a completed episode and new FX added.
In the film and TV business this is called conforming an edit since the editors work is already done and the original high resolution footage needs to be conformed to the edit.
Currently when a TV series edits on downconverted standard definition DVCAM after the edit is complete the nonlinear editor's edit decision list with timecodes (as XML of AAF files) is used to conform the original high definition tapes. Usually this is somewhat automated once the footage is loaded in. Dissolves and effects are rendered, CGI visual effects are added and a master is ready.
Back in the 1980s and 1990s though the tape-to-tape linear videotape editing systems had an EDL (edit decision list) which was a semi-proprietary format (usually saved on 3.5" floppy discs) that had minimal information such as tape# and timecodes in & out for each edit to be able to edit from videotapes of the film telecine to create a videotape master. If that EDL material were printed out and saved it would help assistant editors and a post-production-supervisor's work on TNG-Remastering.
If not then all the raw 35mm footage will take a lot more effort to catalog the 35mm film to be able to locate scenes and takes used and then edits eye-matched to the original master.
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
TNG will have to go through seven years worth of post-production.
Eye matching 7 seasons of episodes would take years but not 7.
If EDLs exist and notes were kept then conforming the takes used for an episode is greatly reduced. Then the film must be telecined to HD and footage handed over to CBS Digital for the visual effects shot work to start.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Still, make no mistake, this project is going to be much much more labor intensive than remastering TOS was.)
agreed.

It's nice to hear sliceofscifi has picked up the rumor story:
Paramount Working on HD “TNG”?

Last edited by jefferiestubes8; May 17 2011 at 06:37 PM.
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Old May 17 2011, 06:39 PM   #90
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Re: Rumor: TNG-HD is a-coming

^ But while spreading this rumor they also give credence to this long-standing misconception:

For a while, we heard that Paramount wasn’t planning to upgrade the modern Treks due to the high price tag involved (the series were filmed on video as opposed to film for TOS)
Too bad so few seem to understand the rather simple distinction between being mastered on videotape versus 'filmed' on tape.
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