RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,178
Posts: 5,345,096
Members: 24,603
Currently online: 557
Newest member: Counselor X

TrekToday headlines

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Retro Review: In the Pale Moonlight
By: Michelle on Jul 19

Trek Beach Towel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 18

Two New Starships Collection Releases
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 10 2011, 02:29 PM   #31
Terra Pryme
Fleet Captain
 
Terra Pryme's Avatar
 
Location: The Savage (not mirror) Universe
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

I felt that Ron Moore did ruin the Bashir character by making him genetically enhanced. Mainly because it turned out to be DS9's biggest continuity error. There were certainly no hints from what we've seen from the previous episodes mentioned let alone anytime in the show's earlier seasons. Julian was so boastful about himself in the first season, which is something he's not supposed to be doing if he were hiding such a secret. And it definitely should have been mentioned in "Distant Voices". If I were a telepathic killer alien, I'd certainly use something like that to my advantage. Another sign of the continuity error would be with Julian's little teddy bear Kukulaka. In "The Quickening", he said he was able to sew and patch him up when he was 5 years old. But if were extremely deficient at that age (saying he was enhanced around his 7th birthday), he definitely would have no such capability.

The continuity issue is debatable, but if you think about it, we should have gotten some hints from the early seasons. This earliest possibility should have been in S1's "Q-Less". A being as omnipotent as Q definitely would have known the secret, since he said he knows everything to Vash's annoyance in that episode.. In the scene he induces Julian to sleep, he says quietly to himself as he leaves the restaurant "Hopefully by yourself for a change". The writers could have added another line afterward like "You're still inferior to the likes of me no matter what they did to you". Something like that would have first-time viewers wondering what the heck he was talking about. An obscure line like that would have a significant role in what we would learn later about Bashir. But the fact is Ron Moore blew it big time by adding something that big about the character so late in the series.
Terra Pryme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2011, 04:13 PM   #32
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

I think it works. I liked how Bashir seemed to react coldly when Odo offered to look up anyone for him in Homefront. That played into this story.

The fact is that Bashir became more interesting as a character because of this story, and it allowed Sloan to enter the DS9 tapestry.
__________________
Can't we have pills and cook the corn?
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2011, 04:44 PM   #33
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Crewman6 wrote: View Post
What the episode SHOULD have been was this -

Julian DISCOVERS that he was genetically engineered by his parents throughout the course of that episode.

Suddenly, his entire world is shattered. All his accomplishments feel phony and hollow. He's devastated, furious and his parents and suddenly terrified of being found out.

That's REAL drama - more immediate, urgent, plausible and far, FAR more interesting than learning he was "hiding" his secret all these years.

Julian, even before the "reveal" of his enhanced abilities, was already a genius with terrific physical skills, too (remember, tennis professional). So there was no need to say he ALSO had a Vulcan mind and those other amazing abilities.

Even the "normal" Julian could have been the product of (subtler) engineering.

And an episode focusing on that revelation would have been awesome.

You blew it, Ron. You really blew it this time.
I completely agree with you. I like Bashir a lot, he's probably one of my favorite characters from the show (I know that's not a popular opinion, but eh, I've just always liked him). I've always been really interested in Khan and the Eugenics Wars, so I loved the idea that Bashir was genetically enhanced. But it would have been far more profound and dramatic if Bashir had never known about it until he finally learns the truth from his parents. Not only would it have fit better with Bashir's character as he had been portrayed thus far, but it would have given Siddig a lot more to work with from an acting perspective, I think.
Skywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2011, 06:19 PM   #34
Rush Limborg
Vice Admiral
 
Rush Limborg's Avatar
 
Location: The EIB Network
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

^I guess I'm sorta with you guys on that--more dramatic potential. (Hindsight's 20/20, though...as I often say, I'd have loved for Ezri Tigan to have been a recurring secondary, "Hard Time" on...and develop a relationship with Julian there. When she receives Dax, Julian helps her through it....)

Still...as the POINT of this thread indicates, looking back, his being enhanced kinda gives a new perspective to those early eps--"Distant Voices" notwithstanding.
__________________
"I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again."

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."
Rush Limborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 14 2011, 11:22 PM   #35
Worf'sParmach
Commander
 
Worf'sParmach's Avatar
 
Location: Plano, TX
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Crewman6 wrote: View Post
What the episode SHOULD have been was this -

Julian DISCOVERS that he was genetically engineered by his parents throughout the course of that episode.

Suddenly, his entire world is shattered. All his accomplishments feel phony and hollow. He's devastated, furious and his parents and suddenly terrified of being found out.

That's REAL drama - more immediate, urgent, plausible and far, FAR more interesting than learning he was "hiding" his secret all these years.
Love this idea! Crewman6 for the win. It makes so much sense that now I'm wondering why the writers didn't think of it.
__________________
Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s
Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo
Worf'sParmach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2012, 03:26 AM   #36
datalogan
Lieutenant Commander
 
datalogan's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

There's some interesting scenes in "Rivals" if you know Bashir's actual racketball skills are much higher than he normally let's on. First, Bashir has to pretend to be "normal" fit young guy, who can easily beat the older O'Brien, and then naturally gloat about it. Then, later in the episode, as the "luck game" starts acting on him, he finds himself loosing the game, even when he tries. How can this be? he may be asking himself; I'm much better than O'Brien, heck, I'm even much better than O'Brien thinks I am. Because I normally have to bring down my game so that no one recognizes my enhanced abilities.

But the scene I find the most interesting and revealing about genetically-enhanced Bashir in "Rivals" is not the beginning, when Bashir is winning, nor the end, when he's loosing because of the "luck game", it's in the middle, when Bashir "throws" the match to O'Brien because he feels bad for him. Remember, genetically enhanced Bashir is always "taking it easy" on those people he plays games with. He has to in order to not let on to people the fact that he has exceptional genetically engineered abilities. And he has also gotten very good at doing so in such a way that it appears natural, not like he's trying to loose. It has to appear as if he's trying to win, even though he's not really doing his genetically-engineered best. In fact, he often chooses to throw in some gloating and pride, maybe because he's just young and feels like gloating, but maybe because he's trying to throw others off the scent of thinking he's actually capable of doing even more than he's showing (and gloating about). But in the match he's trying to "throw" to O'Brien there is another interesting dynamic. He now has to pretend to have even less skill than he normally shows, which is already less than his real skill level. And you know that Bashir could have done so in a convincing way. He's had a lot of practice at throwing games in a convincing way. (Unless he has gotten SO use to his new "normal" level that this further-reduced level feels weird to him.) Yet in the episode, Bashir acts so obvious when he "throws" the game with O'Brien. When he's throwing a game, which he's probably done many times, he does so in a very obvious way. Was this just because he really didn't want to bring his game down so far? Or was he acting so poorly so that others couldn't possibly question that his normal level of play wasn't also faked? I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just think it's an interesting question to think about.
datalogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18 2013, 05:07 AM   #37
datalogan
Lieutenant Commander
 
datalogan's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

In "Armageddon Game" we learn that Bashir actually gave his "medical school diaries" to Jadzia Dax to read. They were supposedly about his "fear of failure" and the like. But I guess they were all just a fabrication that Julian made to keep his secret . . . and possibly to help him try and get Jadzia to date him.
datalogan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18 2013, 10:56 AM   #38
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
In "Dax" Bashir actually gets beaten up by one of Dax's kidnappers, a female who appears younger than he.
I don't really see how this is relevant to Bashir's genetic enhacenments. I remember it being explicitly stated that his hand-eye coordination was enhanced, but nothing that comes to mind ever suggested he was supposed to be any stronger than he would have been without the enhancement. He wasn't designed to be a new Khan, after all. I see no reason why he should be expected to be an extraordinary fighter - or even a particularly good one, if he hasn't bothered much with learning technique.
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18 2013, 12:06 PM   #39
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Fighting isn't just about strength, remember.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18 2013, 12:39 PM   #40
grendelsbayne
Commander
 
grendelsbayne's Avatar
 
Location: Netherlands
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Fighting isn't just about strength, remember.
It's about strength and technique. Julian's enhancements could have provided him with a leg up on learning the technique, but he would still have to apply himself to doing so. He went to medical school, not security school...
grendelsbayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18 2013, 10:11 PM   #41
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

I don't think Bashir's early development makes any sense in the light of his genetic enhancement.

Distant Voices has to be the greatest offender. Here we explore Bashir's insecurities and subconscious. We see crewmembers who represent parts of his personality, yet no manifestation of his genetically enhanced side. We see a huge hangup about failing to become a tennis player, when he must have tanked that intentionally if he was genetically enhanced.

It also makes the fact that he was willing to play tennis against O'Brien just to pound him into the floor more suspect. (And speaking of that episode, when the ball was always going toward O'Brien, they think 'Something is wrong with the laws of probability' before they think 'Quark is trying to fix the match'?)

The only thing about Bashir that makes retroactive sense when you hear of this twist is his medical skills and the post-ganglionic fiber.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 29 2013, 12:11 AM   #42
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
In "Dax" Bashir actually gets beaten up by one of Dax's kidnappers, a female who appears younger than he.
I don't really see how this is relevant to Bashir's genetic enhacenments. I remember it being explicitly stated that his hand-eye coordination was enhanced, but nothing that comes to mind ever suggested he was supposed to be any stronger than he would have been without the enhancement. He wasn't designed to be a new Khan, after all. I see no reason why he should be expected to be an extraordinary fighter - or even a particularly good one, if he hasn't bothered much with learning technique.
I think they established he had greater strength in Take Me Out to the Holosuite
__________________
Can't we have pills and cook the corn?
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 02:43 AM   #43
jibrilmudo
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

The season 5 "Dr. Bashir, I presume" genetic engineering doesn't jive with earlier episodes.

Just take season 2's Melora episode where he's helping Pazlar try to go without her wheelchair.

Two things:
In the season 2 ep, he confides in her that he wanted to be a tennis player but after getting into the professional leagues, the first person to serve on him, he didn't even see the ball and he knew he was hopeless outclassed. So, okay, he may have been covering up enhancements there but why go into Tennis in the first place?

Second, the one that does bother me is that in S2 he mentions his father was a federation diplomat to Invernia II. Then in season 5, Richard Bashir gets downgraded to a complete loser who exaggerates having been a captain when he was really a III class steward on a shuttle run. But he never once mentions having been a diplomat when he could have.

Memory Alpha chose to keep him being a diplomat. But Federation Diplomats in previous eps were never losers, they were distinguished people not chosen at random. There is no reason for Bashir to lie about this in S2, because people can look up info easily, he himself would have known the truth if it was a lie.
jibrilmudo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 03:35 AM   #44
GameOn
Lieutenant Commander
 
GameOn's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

It's easy to pick holes in a massive retcon but when re-watching earlier episodes a few things do seem to support it and it explains his arrogance in earlier seasons.

2x11 "Rivals"
BASHIR: Captain of the team at Starfleet Medical Academy. We took the sector championships in my final year.
O'BRIEN: Against other medical students?
BASHIR: Against everybody. Played a Vulcan in the finals. Talk about stamina. I don't think he ever actually broke a sweat.
O'BRIEN: And you won?
BASHIR: Took him on a back wall riser shot.

3x18 "Distant Voices"
ALTOVAR: Remember, Doctor, I'm inside your head. I know all about you. When you were younger, you wanted to be a tennis player, didn't you.
BASHIR: I wasn't good enough to play professionally.
ALTOVAR: Don't lie to me. Not in here. You were good enough. But you knew your parents wouldn't approve of it. So you gave up and you became a doctor instead.
BASHIR: I love medicine.
ALTOVAR: But you loved tennis more. And what about medical school? You should've been first in your class. What went wrong?
BASHIR: I made a mistake in the final exam.
ALTOVAR: You mistook a pre-ganglionic fibre for a post-ganglionic nerve.
BASHIR: That's right.
ALTOVAR: But pre-ganglionic fibres and post-ganglionic nerves aren't anything alike. Any first year medical student could tell them apart. You purposely answered the question wrong.

4x24 "The Quickening"
BASHIR: I'm going to tell you a little secret, Jadzia. I was looking forward to tomorrow, to seeing Kira again and casually asking, how was the nebula? And oh, by the way, I cured that Blight thing those people had.
DAX: It's not a crime to believe in yourself, Julian.
BASHIR: These people believed in me and look where it got them. Trevean was right. There is no cure. The Dominion made sure of that. But I was so arrogant I thought I could find one in a week.
DAX: Maybe it was arrogant to think that. But it's even more arrogant to think there isn't a cure just because you couldn't find it.
GameOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 30 2013, 06:22 PM   #45
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Rewatching early DS9 knowing that Bashir is genetically enhanced

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Fighting isn't just about strength, remember.
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
It's about strength and technique.
Useful yes, but things like determination and the will to win are far more important.

It's not the dog in the fight ... it's the fight in the dog.




T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.