SONS OF ANARCHY tv series disscussions and comments

[timothy]

okay my bad on the mayan part.

[137th Gebirg]

The all-black members are the "Grim Bastards" out of Lodi. They aren't Sons, but they are a long-time associated club that may be considered a patch-over in the same way that the Calaveras are a patch-over for the Mayans.

The only indication that we've been given that the Sons don't have black members was the Sheriff's comment when he wrecked the wall of photos. Beyond that, there has been absolutely no on-screen evidence whatsoever that SAMCRO is a WASPs-only organization. Hell, we also know that Bobby is Jewish. Sheriff Roosevelt, or whatever his name is, makes SAMCRO look like the Klan on war-training.

All in all, the whole race card thing just seems to be an anorexically thin plot device to manufacture false tension within the club. I'm hoping this will all be explained away at some point, but it's not looking like it. Other than this, though, I am thoroughly enjoying this season.

[Joe Washington]

Great episode tonight. The tension in SOA keeps getting bigger and bigger with each episode.

I glad they brought closure to the Ima situation which I felt wasn't fully resolved or addressed after Jax's rescue of Tara last season. I think Jax effectively made his point in Ima.

I applauded Piney punching Opie. Opie did deserve it by the way he has been acting lately. I hope Opie and Lyla make up somehow and that Opie learns to let go of Donna's shadow on his marriage. But I worry about Piney. I mean why hasn't he been pushing Clay about his answer to the threat he made? Is he wondering what's the point of it all?

I am shocked by how Clay could order a hit on Tara, Jax's wife-to-be and mother of his kids, with Romano's help and then act all friendly and warm with a clueless Jax afterwards. Clay is a cold bastard. I'm glad Unser took some action to protect Tara but I fear all this plotting is going to blow up big time and Jax won't be kept in the dark about what's really going on for long.

Juice truly crossed the point of no return in this episode. Before killing Miles, he had the chance to fess up and try to make things right with his fellow Sons like Chibs did when Stahl tried to turn him into a rat in Season 2. But that chance is gone and whatever way this situation goes, I fear Juice is going to die. I still don't get why the Sons have a no-blacks rule for. I know Chibs said that it has been around for some time and that the rules are the rules but I don't get the reasoning behind it. I do think Chibs suspects Juice is up to something based the chat they hade back in the warehouse. I bet he is going to find out about Juice being a rat before the others.

[Temis the Vorta]

So the Sons do have some bullshit racist rule on the books? Well, then, everything Juice is doing is their fault. I hope things don't end badly for Juice...

Probably the rule has been in place for years and never challenged because no black guy ever tried to become a member. If Juice was more of a forceful personality with a strong sense of self, instead of being buffalloed by Roosevelt into betraying the Sons, he'd have stomped into the club with his family photo album under his arm and yelled, "listen up bitches, it's time for SAMCRO to join the 21st Century!!!"

The funny thing is, I can't envision Juice doing that. How odd, for a motorcycle gang member to be something of a shrinking violet.

Chibs suuuuure is suspicious, isn't he?

I still don't get why the Sons have a no-blacks rule for.

Maybe the older guys were more racist back in the day when they started the club. I can't see them caring now, though, and the younger guys would all side with Juice.

But here's a nicer and maybe more plausible explanation: the rule isn't racist so much as tribalistic. They already knew Juice was Puerto Rican, and it's common for Puerto Ricans to have African ancestry. That, combined with Juice's skin color, should have been enough to "out" him as possibly part black. How could it possibly matter that his black ancestors lived on the mainland rather than a Caribbean island?

But that's not really the issue, because the real issue is his tribal loyalties. There aren't enough Puerto Ricans in California for them to be a force in the gang world, like blacks and Mexicans are. So for Juice to be Puerto Rican doesn't cast suspicion on his loyalties. If he were black or Mexican, or maybe even Russian, it would be a problem simply because the MC would always have to wonder if he might join a rival gang. In which case, it does matter that his black ancestors lived on the mainland rather than a Caribbean island.

If that's the explanation, I think Kurt Sutter needs to make it all clearer to the audience because at this point I'm sure everyone is pretty confused. A "tribal" explanation for the Son's rule plus Juice's already-established lack of intelligence and self-regard would be enough to justify this plotline without anyone needing to be "at fault" - a true tragedy in the making.

[Beagleman]

^
That would be a great explanation for the rule. Sadly I'm they'll just go with "the older guys were more racist"/"it were different times"...

[137th Gebirg]

The revelation of this law seems to be a bit of a bullshit retcon, IMHO. Up until now, for the past 3 seasons and some change, there has never been any indication that there was an official rule for this. And again, Happy does not appear to be too "Lilly White", and they had several non-white Hispanics in the SOA club down along the border from a couple episodes ago. This really feels like a badly patched plot-canyon to give Sheriff Angry-Black-Man a convenient axe to grind with the Sons. I'll still watch it all to the end, but if that's all this is, I've definitely lost some respect for the writing staff on this one.

[timothy]

well things are really going to heat up next week. clay put hit out on jax's girl friend. I wonder how jema will handel this when she finds out. the way things are going I don't think juice will survive to the end of the season.

[PsychoPere]

Based on Kurt Sutter's tweets today, it doesn't sound like the Juice & racism storyline is going to be making any more sense as the season progresses...

Kurt Sutter wrote:

---

critics and fans are struggling with the juice racism story. they crave more exposition. they're not gonna get it. i don't point story.

lack of set up exposition is why this show continues to surprise people and head in directions unimagined. everything in juice's arc has been supported by three seasons of story. you've never seen a black member. the[y've] never discussed under current of racism.

i would argue that the response is exactly what i intended -- what the fuck? this makes no sense? really? there are other minorities...

that's the point. it's archaic, but exists. if i set it up with another story, you would have seen this arc coming and i'd get shit for that[.]

the truth is people and by people i mean the cunts who keep fucking blogging about it, HATE the fact the club segregates.

it makes people UNCOMFORTABLE the guys they love to hate are racists. they can be gunrunning misogynist murderers, but they can't be racist.

I normally agree with, or at the very least am amused by, Sutter's "angry" thoughts on Twitter, but I really don't feel like this racism storyline is supported at all by "three seasons of story." I can't recall any indications of SAMCRO members seeming racist at all in the past seasons, so this storyline feels like it's literally come out of nowhere.

[Gov Kodos]

PsychoPere wrote:

---

Based on Kurt Sutter's tweets today, it doesn't sound like the Juice & racism storyline is going to be making any more sense as the season progresses...

I normally agree with, or at the very least am amused by, Sutter's "angry" thoughts on Twitter, but I really don't feel like this racism storyline is supported at all by "three seasons of story." I can't recall any indications of SAMCRO members seeming racist at all in the past seasons, so this storyline feels like it's literally come out of nowhere.

They don't need to be overtly racist like the Nords to want to keep blacks out of the club. Also, it is yet to be shown how strongly this angle will play out. Right now, we have only Juice's fear of bad reaction which is only going to be compounded with the fallout from the traveling brick which Chibs has suspicions about in regards to juice.

The last time race played any great factor as far as I recall was in Donna's death and Jax and Piney were talking to the Niners. Piney didn't come across all that racially sensitive, one might put it down to Donna's death or just him, but as First Nine, it could also show some underlying mentality in those early years.

I want to see how this plays out, but I don't see this yet as the club is suddenly racist. So far, it is Roosevelt playing on Juice's fears. We know that there is a club rule about race, but rules can be voted on and changed. Not likely now, with everything going on, but it is playing out interestingly to me.

[PsychoPere]

FX has ordered a fifth season.

[Gov Kodos]

Cool beans, thanks for the news.

[137th Gebirg]

Good news indeed!

[Temis the Vorta]

PsychoPere wrote:

---

I normally agree with, or at the very least am amused by, Sutter's "angry" thoughts on Twitter, but I really don't feel like this racism storyline is supported at all by "three seasons of story." I can't recall any indications of SAMCRO members seeming racist at all in the past seasons, so this storyline feels like it's literally come out of nowhere.

I think Sutter is underestimating the importance of depicting the Sons as basically decent people who can be bad but who don't ever cross the line into becoming truly contemptible.

And I wouldn't say they're terribly misogynist. They respect the hell out of Gemma, and seems like Tara is now counted in that "kick-ass old lady" category. Opie cheating on his wife was caused by their lack of communication, and that goes both ways. He was angry at Lila, not just cheating on her because he lacked respect for her. Chibs was loving and protective of his ex-wife and daughter; Tig gave his daughter money, even when her conniving lies were exposed. Otto was torn up over Luann's murder and the club got revenge on her killer. If they were misogynist, they wouldn't respect Gemma, or any of the rest of it.

They don't respect the kind of woman who doesn't deserve respect, but they take that attitude towards men as well. SAMCRO has been carefully depicted as bad-ass and occasionally ruthless but strangely moral by their own lights. They're a true community, they look out for each other and they have a sense of honor.

The Juice plotline could be finessed if the issue is not him being nonwhite - they know he's Puerto Rican, right? - but if he's a member of a racial or ethnic group that might lead to divided loyalties. There are no Puerto Rican MC's in California, but there are black MC's.

If that's the issue, then deft writing could communicate it to the audience, as well as the tragic twist that Juice isn't quite smart enough to realize that all SAMCRO would care about is that he'd never join a black MC. He's a slightly simple-minded guy - that's been well established - and it's plausible that he'd make this sort of mistake, when all he had to do was confront the MC about their supposed racism and have everything settled by one conversation.

[Joe Washington]

Juice is going through the wringer after killing Miles. I hope he isn't dead and that the tree broke before he could die from hanging. I'm happy to see that Roosevelt is torn up about what he is doing to Juice and seeing how much of a bastard his so-called ally is.

It's about time that Bobby called for a vote to remove Clay as President. I was surprised that it happened now but now that it has happened, I can't wait to see what happens next.

I really feel bad for Opie. To think that he and Lyla went from being happily married in the beginning of the season to them being torn apart by miscommunication and cheating a week or so after getting married to Lyla packing her bags and leaving Opie. I hope that the two of them reunite and makeup.

Tara, I fear, is at the end of her rope about the crap the club has involved itself in and its impact on her life. Based on the preview, she seems to be thinking about leaving Charming with her kids. I understand why she would do that but I hope something changes her mind. I also really hope that she shares the letters with Jax so he could know how much of a monster Clay is before his direction for the club with the Cartel makes things worse than before.

[The Master of Tarquin Hill]

Given where the story was going I'm glad that the Juice character is dead. Subplots about snitches really bore me. Still, I wish Sutter hadn't killed him off. It would have been a lot more interesting for Juice to tell Clay what was going on w/ the cops, and about his dad, and then build a story from there. Seeing the club confront their racist rule would have been much more interesting than seeing the "brown guy" turn into a halfway-snitch.