A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[137th Gebirg]

Klaus wrote:

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^cue geeks kidnapping the producers and torturing them for the info...

Would make a great Big Bang Theory episode.

[Brendan Moody]

Takeru wrote:

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The producers know how the story will end, George R.R. Martin told them, if Martin writes too slow the show will simply overtake the novels.

They know some major aspects of the ending, yes, but I doubt they know enough to put together a decent TV version of the rest of the story, and I'm not at all sure they'd want to. Especially since, as was discussed the last time this came up, there are other options.

[Venardhi]

Given what they've come up with as far as original content for the show thus far (Daenerys and Robb's stories last season, for example).

. . . they probably shouldn't.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Oh, I dunno. Tywin's interactions with Arya At Harrenhal were complete fabrications unique to the TV version and they were exceptionally well done, I thought.

[Venardhi]

I knew someone would chime in with that. While they were very well done, they didn't add much (if anything) to the plot or even to Arya's own story.

[Takeru]

Brendan Moody wrote:

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They know some major aspects of the ending, yes, but I doubt they know enough to put together a decent TV version of the rest of the story, and I'm not at all sure they'd want to. Especially since, as was discussed the last time this came up, there are other options.

Screw other options, Martin wouldn't have told them things if he wasn't okay with them using the informaton. They don't have to know every detail, as long as they know what happens to the major characters and plotlines it's not hard to figure out a way to get them there. They are changing parts of the story anyway, so it doesn't make much of a difference.

[Brendan Moody]

Takeru wrote:

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Martin wouldn't have told them things if he wasn't okay with them using the informaton.

I doubt he seriously considered the possibility one way or the other. He was giving them information to help with long-term planning, not a way to replace him.

They don't have to know every detail, as long as they know what happens to the major characters and plotlines it's not hard to figure out a way to get them there. They are changing parts of the story anyway, so it doesn't make much of a difference.

I think you're overestimating what they know, and underestimating the complexity of the narrative. Sure, they could slap something together, but would it be satisfying as a resolution? If it comes down to "make something up or you're canceled," they might take a stab anyway. But I don't think that's going to happen.

The Arya/Tywin scenes are superficially well-crafted and amusing, but repetitive, and they undermine or displace the themes those characters are meant to reflect. Benioff and Weiss seem to think that Martin's less pleasant characters (Tywin, Cersei) need to be made "ambiguous" or "nuanced" by giving them heartwarming parental moments to balance out the nastiness; I don't find it at all convincing.

[Anwar]

Why not? The series does it's best to give us characters we assume are just bad (Jaime) and then have it turn out to not be so. What's wrong with doing the same to Tywin and Cersei?

[Deckerd]

Because they're sociopaths?

Actually this last conversation has put me right off seing the TV version.

[Takeru]

Tywin and Cersei loving people is straight out of the books, Tywin loved his wife, Cersei loves her children, it's not out of character to show them having nice moments with certain people. It's more interesting than Tywin just being a bastard and Cersei a raging, stupid bitch. The only true Lannister sociopath is Joffrey and the show is doing a great job portraying him.

And Deckerd, if you haven't seen the show, watch it now! It's not perfect (neither are the novels btw) but it's a great adaptation. Don't let a few people on a message board talking about stuff stop you from experiencing it, even if you don't like it, you should find out for yourself

[Deckerd]

Tywin loved only one person, long dead. Everyone else he loathed. Cersei loved nobody but herself. Her son was evidence of this since he was completely psychotic. The other one managed to escape by being too young for her to damage too much.

[Kosh Naranek]

Tywin loved Joanna, true. I also think he cared for Kevan.

I think he saw his children as his legacy and tried tirelessly to mold them into what he saw as best for the Lannister family. They were there to carry on what he had started, and he was most dismayed when they acted on their own.

I think he loved Jaime but was flabbergasted by what he saw as his son throwing away all that he had worked to give him.

Cersei was a girl and therefore did not really make a blip on her father's radar other than as a potential pawn.

He obviously loathed Tyrion for his form and "killing" Joanna.

I think the show did a good job of showing who Tywin is in those scenes with Arya. (I waffle on whether or not Arya as a character suffers as a result. She loses some of the "kill" scenes, and I am inclined to think that a good thing. Martin made her almost too bloody.)

Cersei for all her flaws did love her children, but her love blinded her and made her a terrible mother.

She never allowed herself to see what Joffrey was and then cannonized him on his death. She then used Joffrey's death to berate poor Tommen for not being like his brother. She thought of Joffrey was strong when he was really snivelling and deranged.

Kevan and even Jaime eventually had the same thought. Tommen would be better off removed from his mother's influence. Tommen is sensible and not unkind. He could be molded into a good leader.

Cersei learned few things from Tywin, but she learned only his hardest lessons. She saw how his cruelty won him certain things but never learned that too much cruelty and sheer spite can be as damaging as being too soft.

Even without the ear (Thank you Dark Star), Myrcella is far better off in Dorne.

In the show they have taken one of her earliest and most heinous offenses (Robert's illegimate childrens' deaths) and tacked it on to Joffrey. I don't blame them much for that, but Cersei's descent into madness is compelling in the books.

At least I thought she was going mad. I gave her much more credit for cunning and game playing before Martin let us in her head. Then she became this paranoid small creature. I am still not sure how I feel about that.

[Deckerd]

She's not mad in the books. Nowhere near. She's just completely self-obsessed. Everyone else is suborned to her desire to have everything she wants. She wouldn't recognise love if it whacked her on the back of the head with a heavy plank. Her judgement and political acumen are non-existent so every decision she makes is a train wreck. Her lack of empathy with any other human (including Jaime) borders on autism. She's my second favourite character in all the books.

[Kosh Naranek]

Deckerd wrote:

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She's not mad in the books. Nowhere near. She's just completely self-obsessed. Everyone else is suborned to her desire to have everything she wants. She wouldn't recognise love if it whacked her on the back of the head with a heavy plank. Her judgement and political acumen are non-existent so every decision she makes is a train wreck. Her lack of empathy with any other human (including Jaime) borders on autism. She's my second favourite character in all the books.

Do you think the whole Magi the Frog thing is not driving her a bit bonkers? I thought she was loosing it there at the end. I guess the next installment will be telling.

not mad just inept -

[Nagisa Furukawa]

If there ever gets to be a point where the TV goes over Martin's writing while he's still writing... fuck that. I'd quit watching and avoid spoilers like the plague. If Martin dies, that's one thing. If Martin's in New Mexico toiling away at Book 7 while the TV series does its own ending... no. I want to experience this story ending through the books, not an adaptation. Not saying the producers shouldn't even do it; just that if they do, keep it away from me.

Takeru wrote:

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And Deckerd, if you haven't seen the show, watch it now! It's not perfect (neither are the novels btw) but it's a great adaptation. Don't let a few people on a message board talking about stuff stop you from experiencing it, even if you don't like it, you should find out for yourself

I'd say the first season is a very solid 9/10 that borders on 10/10 at times and, quibbles aside, is as good of an adaptation as you can imagine. The second season... is a lot more sketchy in quality, both as its own series and as an adaptation. Some elements, like Theon's ACoK arc, were adapted really well, even if they changed some things, while others, like Jon Snow's, they completely fucked up on.

The series is worth seeing, but it's really a cute novelty for me.

Kosh Naranek wrote:

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I gave her much more credit for cunning and game playing before Martin let us in her head. Then she became this paranoid small creature. I am still not sure how I feel about that.

I love it! One of the best things about the series is how completely wrongfooted first impressions can be. A lot of people when they read A Game of Thrones are given this impression of Cersei as a master manipulator, which then confuses people at how the pure chance of circumstances allowed Cersei to get away with killing Robert. But as we see later, Cersei truly is a mental incompetent. Inside her head, it's insane how completely and utterly wrong she interrupts everything and everyone, making enemies out of allies while sucking up to (and sucking) enemies. She fascinates me but Livia she is not.