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Old October 18 2012, 04:29 AM   #1216
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Anwar wrote: View Post
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^^^ Not a full one. Remember, he got burned by the lantern he used to kill the White that attacked the Lord Commander. We are regularly reminded of this every time he flexes his sword hand. He may be like Veseries, a partial dragon-born.
Martin had to actually go on record and say that Targaryens aren't immune to fire, it was the Dragon eggs that were protecting Daenerys until they found a way to hatch. Once they were born they had to take back their protection magic.
Yep. Besides, if Targaryens were truly immune to fire, then Aegon V wouldn't have burned to death when he tried to hatch his dragon eggs at Summerhall.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:24 PM   #1217
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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Jon's death only makes sense dramatically if he is reborn in some way.
Jon's arc from A Game of Thrones to A Storm of Swords is a slow evolution from a boy to a man, from the bastard son of the Starks to a man in the Night's Watch and finally culminating in becoming the Lord Commander, the guy at the top.

His entire arc in A Dance With Dragons is about gradually mismanaging the balance between the different factions and agendas and the rest of it that itch against the Night's Watch - trying to take the noble, high minded Everyone Against the Others line while being unable to really stem the disatisfaction many even in his closest circles hold towards their new wildling allies, and finally culminating in a decision to use the Night's Watch to aid the forces of Stannis... all of this ending in his death.

It's an anticlimactic, seneless death, but those can happen and indeed his half-brother (or cousin if you're into the whole R+L=J) died in a very similar manner.

Having Jon not die kind of takes away from that impact. Why bother to even kill him if the next step is so plainly a magical resurrection of some kind, a step in his character evolution (to, yes, no doubt a changed figure, but that doesn't make the death itself any less banal). The death is no longer the wrenching, arresting event it is at Baelor and the Red Wedding and now just a checklist to be scribbled in.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:43 PM   #1218
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^^^ Agreed, and considering how such a magical resurrection changed Catelyn (as opposed to the healing of Beric Dondarrion), I suspect that Jon will also likely undergo a similarly drastic change. I got the impression that they're not fully alive. It will be curious to see how his POV chapters are written to hear what's going through his head.
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Old October 18 2012, 02:57 PM   #1219
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Beric was rescurrected rather quickly after his deaths but lost more and more of himself as time and the revivals ran on.

Cat was dead for days before they found her body. Stoneheart seems to retain some of Cat's memories, but has lost much of who Cat was as a person.

Perhaps Martin's goal in Jon's Ceasar like stabbing was to kill the standard hero of the story and replace him with something darker?

Were other forces at work in Jon's final POV? Mel? Bloodraven? Bran? I don't know.

It could all just be a feint. Was the slash to the neck just a nick or did Jon sustain a more grievous wound than he realized? Would his layers of wool, leather and perhaps chainmail protect his abdomen? Would the knife in the back paralyze him? Is that why he did not feel the fourth knife?

A friend pointed out to me that Martin's characters never die in thier own POVs. (Cat got brought back.) I will know Jon is dead when Mel confirms it. She is the only other POV character we have on the Wall, right?

My personal pet theory (of the day) is that the Others are coming which is why Ghost was flipping out. Jon is dead, and the Wall is getting ready to fall.
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Old October 18 2012, 03:03 PM   #1220
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

He's not remotely sentimental about killing central characters off, so my reading is if he's left it open, there's a reason for that.
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Old October 18 2012, 03:07 PM   #1221
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kosh Naranek wrote: View Post
My personal pet theory (of the day) is that the Others are coming which is why Ghost was flipping out. Jon is dead, and the Wall is getting ready to fall.
I took Ghost's unease at being able to sense Jon was in danger right before he was attacked. Sensing the Others' arrival makes sense too, but we won't know for certain until the beginning of the next book. IIRC, GRRM will be opening with "two major battles". Most likely Stannis' siege on Winterfell and, as you said, the Others at the Wall. Are there any other things going on elsewhere? Ironborn attacks? Dornish displeasure towards Kings Landing? City-state battles in Slavers Bay?
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Old October 18 2012, 03:24 PM   #1222
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Kosh Naranek wrote: View Post
My personal pet theory (of the day) is that the Others are coming which is why Ghost was flipping out. Jon is dead, and the Wall is getting ready to fall.
I took Ghost's unease at being able to sense Jon was in danger right before he was attacked. Sensing the Others' arrival makes sense too, but we won't know for certain until the beginning of the next book. IIRC, GRRM will be opening with "two major battles". Most likely Stannis' siege on Winterfell and, as you said, the Others at the Wall. Are there any other things going on elsewhere? Ironborn attacks? Dornish displeasure towards Kings Landing? City-state battles in Slavers Bay?
I assumed the two battles Martin mentioned would be the battle in the snow (Stannis vs. Bolton forces) and Merreen (sp?).

Barristan and Co. seemed pretty screwed at the end of Dance. They were besieged and plague ridden.

But, I don't discount things getting nasty on the Wall. The Wildlings, the Watch and the Queen's men are going to probably turn on each other big time, even if the Others don't come.

Will there be a time lapse in which we don't know what is going on at the Wall? Jon was our main POV there. Mel has only had one POV, and Sam is at the Citadel now. I always assumed we would hear of what went down at the Wall secondhand for some reason - reports of the Others from stragglers that survived the carnage or urgent birds to Stannis from Selyse's company. Of course that is all just spec.
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Old October 18 2012, 04:26 PM   #1223
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

What I was curious about was how long the Wildings were allowed to remain unmolested by the Others while they were hanging out north of the wall. The Others/Whites army was already on the move when they attacked the Watch at the Fist of the First Men, only slightly behind the Wilding army at best, marching in parallel with them at worst. The Wildings make it to the wall first, obviously, and they hang out there for quite some time - enough for Stannis' forces to arrive, come to an agreement and bring a ton of people through the gates. What are the Others waiting for? The bunching-up of the Wilding civilians moving through the wall would have been a perfect time to surround and attack a huge contingent of humans that would have been quickly turned to swell their own ranks. The time frame doesn't quite add up to me. Are they aware of Mellisandre's presence and, if so, scared of her? Does her presence and, ergo, the presence of the Red God slow their advance and the influence of He-Who-Should-Not-Be-Named?
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Old October 18 2012, 05:19 PM   #1224
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kosh Naranek wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Kosh Naranek wrote: View Post
My personal pet theory (of the day) is that the Others are coming which is why Ghost was flipping out. Jon is dead, and the Wall is getting ready to fall.
I took Ghost's unease at being able to sense Jon was in danger right before he was attacked. Sensing the Others' arrival makes sense too, but we won't know for certain until the beginning of the next book. IIRC, GRRM will be opening with "two major battles". Most likely Stannis' siege on Winterfell and, as you said, the Others at the Wall. Are there any other things going on elsewhere? Ironborn attacks? Dornish displeasure towards Kings Landing? City-state battles in Slavers Bay?
I assumed the two battles Martin mentioned would be the battle in the snow (Stannis vs. Bolton forces) and Merreen (sp?).

Barristan and Co. seemed pretty screwed at the end of Dance. They were besieged and plague ridden.

But, I don't discount things getting nasty on the Wall. The Wildlings, the Watch and the Queen's men are going to probably turn on each other big time, even if the Others don't come.

Will there be a time lapse in which we don't know what is going on at the Wall? Jon was our main POV there. Mel has only had one POV, and Sam is at the Citadel now. I always assumed we would hear of what went down at the Wall secondhand for some reason - reports of the Others from stragglers that survived the carnage or urgent birds to Stannis from Selyse's company. Of course that is all just spec.
The next novel could pick up with Stannis having sent either Reek/ Theon or Asha back to the Wall and they could be the POV character(s) there. But I still think Jon will either live or be resurrected.
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Old October 18 2012, 10:25 PM   #1225
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kegg wrote: View Post
It's an anticlimactic, seneless death, but those can happen and indeed his half-brother (or cousin if you're into the whole R+L=J) died in a very similar manner.
Jon is on a different level from Ned and Robb; Ned certainly was a shock, given that he looked like the main character in the first book, but when it's a series of five/seven that's not nearly the same thing as killing the guy who's been the main character of the whole thing. Robb wasn't even a POV figure (his death in the show will probably have a bigger impact for the unspoiled since the show doesn't have that distinction).

Paralleling Jon and Dany in the fifth book, it's about them both fumbling their responsibilities as leader; there's no real reason to think the remainder isn't about them recovering from that experience.
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Old October 18 2012, 11:15 PM   #1226
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

It just occurred to me that if they are fated to be together, we already know he likes 'em "kissed by fire"... Dany and her dragons would be perfect!
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Old October 19 2012, 09:13 AM   #1227
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
What I was curious about was how long the Wildings were allowed to remain unmolested by the Others while they were hanging out north of the wall. The Others/Whites army was already on the move when they attacked the Watch at the Fist of the First Men, only slightly behind the Wilding army at best, marching in parallel with them at worst. The Wildings make it to the wall first, obviously, and they hang out there for quite some time - enough for Stannis' forces to arrive, come to an agreement and bring a ton of people through the gates. What are the Others waiting for? The bunching-up of the Wilding civilians moving through the wall would have been a perfect time to surround and attack a huge contingent of humans that would have been quickly turned to swell their own ranks.
I don't think their numbers are that huge, otherwise they would have done a lot more damage historically. Their troops are time-limited to how long their corpses stay together. I don't think troops can turn troops so it would require one of the Others to do the turning. Sam killed one of their knights but he was on his own. The only other time we see one of their knights is at the very beginning of the first book and he was on his own too.

Of course I could be completely wrong about troops turning other living things but it isn't clear and the troops don't rampage around willy nilly like modern day zombie movies; they are driven by someone who knows about combat and subterfuge.
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Old October 19 2012, 02:50 PM   #1228
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/10/ne...ng-in-morocco/

New photos of Emilia Clarke and Iain Glen onset in Morocco (presumably standing in for Astapor?).
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Old October 19 2012, 11:42 PM   #1229
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

“@OonaCC: Today was a day I will never forget. You will never forget. #GameOfThrones”



Damnit :/
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Old October 20 2012, 12:19 AM   #1230
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I guess one advantage of not being a character from the books means that we don't know what's going to happen to her in connection to the RW... Will they use her w/o Robb?
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