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Old May 15 2014, 05:18 AM   #2371
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

theenglish wrote: View Post
She doesn't appear until the very last page. I expect this to be the final fade to credits scene of the season.
I'm also expecting this...it'll be a nice contrast to Danys' crowd-surfing last year.
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Old May 16 2014, 01:11 AM   #2372
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...r-9373928.html

Some sick fucks running this show
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Old May 16 2014, 03:08 AM   #2373
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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I'm beginning to doubt they'll have Tyrion kill her, though if they do it'll be the biggest shocker of all for the non-readers... Even in the context of this show people will freak.
I am no book purists but I would be shocked if he did not kill her. That would be a far more significant change than anything else to date
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Old May 16 2014, 05:35 AM   #2374
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I believe they've pretty much already established he will; because the show uses a badge instead of a chain for the Hand's symbol of office, Tyrion will strangle Shae with that gold necklace he gave her last season.
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Old May 16 2014, 02:08 PM   #2375
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^^^Yep, and the show she put on for everyone at court to aid the case against him put another nail in the coffin. Once he finds her in daddy's bed, that will seal her fate.
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Old May 16 2014, 04:03 PM   #2376
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I still consider Tyrion's murder of Shae to be his moral event horizon. Up to that point, he really wasn't as bad as everyone else. Killing Shae and then his father, though, essentially represents him becoming his father--ruthless and amoral.
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Old May 16 2014, 05:28 PM   #2377
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^ Some would say that he was giving them their just desserts. It's certainly open to debate but I'm not sure I'd agree that his actions were amoral. Cold-blooded, yes, but revenge usually is.
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Old May 19 2014, 05:19 PM   #2378
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Let's see: public, humiliating, betrayal by the woman he loved and a father who was willing to destroy or take the rest of his life to achieve his own ends.

I'm willing to give Tyrion a pass on both of those killings.
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Old May 19 2014, 05:52 PM   #2379
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, it's totally cool to kill people because they were mean to you.

Killing Tywin could be stretched to self-defense, though it's incredibly questionable as to whether killing Tywin makes Tyrion's life any less threatened. One could more easily argue that adding patricide on top of regicide and escape from justice only means the bounty on his head will be higher with no real benefit to himself.

Killing Shae, on the other hand, is completely indefensible.
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Old May 19 2014, 06:50 PM   #2380
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I still consider Tyrion's murder of Shae to be his moral event horizon. Up to that point, he really wasn't as bad as everyone else. Killing Shae and then his father, though, essentially represents him becoming his father--ruthless and amoral.
Just to play devil's advocate - using wildfire (essentially a weapon of mass destruction so dangerous that its use is morally questionable) during the battle of the Blackwater (killing thousands) did not represent crossing a moral event horizon, but knocking off two people whose actions would knowingly result in your death did?
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Old May 19 2014, 08:38 PM   #2381
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I still consider Tyrion's murder of Shae to be his moral event horizon. Up to that point, he really wasn't as bad as everyone else. Killing Shae and then his father, though, essentially represents him becoming his father--ruthless and amoral.
Just to play devil's advocate - using wildfire (essentially a weapon of mass destruction so dangerous that its use is morally questionable) during the battle of the Blackwater (killing thousands) did not represent crossing a moral event horizon, but knocking off two people whose actions would knowingly result in your death did?
The wildfire was used solely against an invading force that intended to sack the city. War sucks, but under the circumstances it was either Stannis loses a lot of soldiers or lots of people in King's Landing die.

I mainly object to Tyrion's murder of Shae because she's completely defenseless when he does it, and she holds no power over him at that point. Tywin is slightly more understandable, since Tywin is an ongoing threat, yet his death only further seals Tyrion's fate.
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Old May 19 2014, 09:32 PM   #2382
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Framing what Shae did as just "being mean to him" is a bit disingenuous. Her false testimony sealed his guilty verdict along with a likely death sentence. Sure, she's probably not a threat anymore at that point. If I knew that someone had tried to kill me, my morality sure as hell isn't the thing that would keep me from responding in kind. It would be the risk of failure and thus renewed attempts on my life, and it would be the risk of legal ramifications. Tyrion's gonna be on the lam regardless.

I'll happily join in with the rest of the cheering immoral viewers when Tyrion does the deed.
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Old May 19 2014, 10:09 PM   #2383
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Framing someone with the result that you're sentenced to death goes a little bit beyond 'being mean to you.' And we're not dealing with 21st century western civilisation morality. Was what Tyrion did any worse than Ned Stark beheading the nights watch deserter or Robb executing Lord Karstsrk, Dany crucifying the city elders, Jon beheading Janos Slynt, etc?
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Old May 20 2014, 02:46 AM   #2384
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Ned, Robb and Jon were all in their legal rights to do what they did as Lords/Kings/Commanders. And Dany is learning that what she did was maybe not the best thing to do.

There's also the side-point that Shae was most likely coerced into testifying and saying what she did. I mean, she embarrassed herself when she revealed their sex life just as much as she embarrassed Tyrion. Yet Tyrion never stops to think that maybe she DIDN'T do it out of spite despite knowing Cersei had a hand in everything.
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Old May 20 2014, 06:18 AM   #2385
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

In context of the ASOIAF world I have no problems with Tyrion's murder of Tywin. His murder of Shae is obviously immoral, though.
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