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Old August 1 2013, 12:59 PM   #2041
Brendan Moody
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Effective leaders tend not to be stabbed to death by their own subordinates.

Jon had some good ideas about how to adjust the Watch's priorities, but had no sense of how to justify those ideas to those who disagreed, instead relying on the authority of his position to force things through. But even in a feudal society, you're not going to get far without cultivating personal as well as institutional loyalty. (Tyrion made the same mistake in A Clash of Kings.) He took the wrong lesson from Aemon's advice to "Kill the boy," thinking it was a command to isolate himself and act like an utter hardass. As readers, we know that Jon genuinely cares about the Watch and is (in most respects) doing his best to maintain its mission in difficult times. But someone like Bowen Marsh isn't reading Jon's POV chapters, so all he can see is a Lord Commander who rode with the wildlings very recently, and is now as likely to get advice from them as from his own men. Since Marsh doesn't know he's in an epic fantasy series, he can't be sure there'll be a big confrontation with the Others that will justify treating the wildlings as allies.

And from the beginning, Jon had trouble sticking to the part of his oath that involved renouncing who he had been for the good of the Watch. Fandom cheered when he beheaded Janos Slynt, but while that was technically justifiable in terms of Slynt's disobedience, it's hard to escape the sense that it was also an act of revenge. Especially when he then allows Melisandre and Mance to attempt a rescue of "Arya," and announces plans to lead a wildling army against the Warden of the North. It's hard not to sympathize with Jon there, given what a monster Ramsay is, but at the same time, according to the standards of the society it's flagrant oathbreaking.
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Old August 1 2013, 01:11 PM   #2042
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Brendan Moody wrote: View Post
Effective leaders tend not to be stabbed to death by their own subordinates.
And you, Brutus?
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Old August 1 2013, 01:24 PM   #2043
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I don't think you can claim Julius Caesar was an effective political (as opposed to military) leader either, for that very reason. Augustus did a rather better job of acquiring the same degree of control without making his power grab so obvious. One can debate, of course, whether Caesar's assassins or Jon's had the more legitimate grievances.
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Old August 1 2013, 04:05 PM   #2044
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

While I love Jon and was looking forward to him taking on Ramsay at Winterfell, the actions of Marsh etc are of course entirely justifiable from their POV. The Watch was not supposed to get involved in disputes of the realm, but here they were all but throwing their lot in with Stannis, a defeated usurper. Then Jon was proposing to declare war on the new Warden of the North, or at least his son. Quite right he was, but this was basically revenge, not part of his duties as Lord Commander or a member of the Watch.

As Brendan has said, Marsh etc weren't privy to Jon's thoughts and must have imagined that this would lead to the Lannisters sending a force up to destroy the remnants of the Nights Watch. These were men who had dedicated their lives to the black. I don't agree with what they did and I hope Jon recovers and nails Ramsay's body to the highest tower in Winterfell, but one can certainly understand that they did what they felt they had to do.
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Old August 19 2013, 11:30 PM   #2045
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Tommen recast?

He will be played by the same actor that played Martyn Lannister.
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Old August 19 2013, 11:47 PM   #2046
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

That makes sense. The show is likely to emphasize Margaery's efforts to ingratiate herself with Tommen more than the books did, which would make him a more prominent character.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:12 AM   #2047
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I'm assuming Gatiss is Bloodraven now, as we've had all the other roles I'd suspected cast.

Also, I've been bored off my tits recently so jotted down my picks for the 5 most underrated ASOIF characters on my blog.
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Old August 20 2013, 06:41 AM   #2048
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Stannis, a defeated usurper
Defeated yes, but not usurper... the humorless SOB is still the rightful king by the line of succession.
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Old August 20 2013, 12:37 PM   #2049
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^yes, but I mean that's how those from the Night's Watch, unaware of the truth of Joffrey and Tommen's parentage, would have seen it.
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Old August 29 2013, 12:13 PM   #2050
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/tvnews.php?id=108272

Michael Huisman of Nashville fame has joined the show in another unnamed role. Thoughts, anyone?
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Old August 29 2013, 03:00 PM   #2051
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Has Oberyn Martell been cast yet? If not, that would be my guess. He even kind of looks like this artist's rendition of him, with matching long nose and dark hair. Make the hair a tad bit longer and you have him 100%.

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Old August 29 2013, 03:07 PM   #2052
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Yeah, Oberyn was the first to be cast of this season, to be played by Chilean actor Pedro Pascal.
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Old August 29 2013, 03:24 PM   #2053
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Hmmm...then I got nothin...
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Old August 29 2013, 03:26 PM   #2054
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Some people at Comingsoon thought 'young Griff' but I wouldn't have thought he'll be introduced in season 4.
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Old August 29 2013, 03:40 PM   #2055
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Yeah, that does seem a bit early. Then again, we saw some early Theon/Reek stuff before we should have, chronologically, so could be...
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