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Old July 19 2013, 08:23 PM   #1951
Captaindemotion
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I don't know if we can look too closely to the Targ interbreeding for an explanation of anything. IIRC, Martin has admitted that genetics aren't his strongpoint. In this continuity, all Baratheons have black hair and all Targs have purple eyes and silvery hair; it's not really like real-world genetics apply.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:23 PM   #1952
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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I think the series will end with the iron throne being destroyed, the game of thrones finally finishing. I'd be disappointed if we got anything as simple as Jon or Dany on the throne after defeating the evil Others. ASOIAF is usually more complex than that.
I could see the final scene showing two luminous beings, the Red God and the "Other (Blue?) God", sitting on opposite sides of a massive chess board, or possibly the intro scene "map machine", with one of them tipping over a small playing piece that resembles a miniature Iron Throne in the area of the map that resembles King's Landing, with the other looking smug, almost akin to the Greek gods playing games with humans on Mount Olympus.

We're constantly seeing war maps and wooden pieces being pushed around in the show. May be just nifty prop work, or possibly some greater foreshadowing. Not really sure right now.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:24 PM   #1953
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Have you been watching Lost lately?
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Old July 19 2013, 08:27 PM   #1954
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Heh...not in a while, but yeah...like that.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:33 PM   #1955
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
I don't know if we can look too closely to the Targ interbreeding for an explanation of anything. IIRC, Martin has admitted that genetics aren't his strongpoint. In this continuity, all Baratheons have black hair and all Targs have purple eyes and silvery hair; it's not really like real-world genetics apply.
May seem a pedantic point but not ALL Targs have purple eyes and silver hair. Princess Rhaenys took after her Dornish mother not Rhaegar in appearance and Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight also doesn't look traditionally Targ (or traditionally Valyrian). A minor point but an important one given how many times I've heard "But how can Jon be a Targaryen if he's got brown hair?"
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Old July 19 2013, 08:40 PM   #1956
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I finally finished my A Song of Ice and Fire re-read today with A Game of Thrones.

One thing that struck me is that the first book is really fucking fast paced compared to the rest. Every chapter is important and moves the plot along, the prose is much simpler, more focused and functional, a huge chunk of the characters are together in the story so it has a simpler structure, and there's way less detail given on historical events/background characters. It's a much simpler novel than what followed, focusing on a very easy, digestible conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters.

Think the book is a classic, but I'd say I prefer Martin's writing style in A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows. In those books he gave much more detail, was slower, and concentrated more on atmosphere. I actually hate using numbers to score things, but I'm in a lazy mood today so I'd rate the series:

A Game of Thrones - 9/10
A Clash of Kings - 10/10
A Storm of Swords - 10/10
A Feast for Crows - 9/10
A Dance with Dragons - 7.5/10

Books 2 and 3 are arguably the best fantasy I've ever read, Book 4 improved HUGELY on a re-read, and ADWD was obviously several drafts away from completion.

Love this series. Gonna check out George R.R. Martin's other novels next, and fantasy-wise I've started Joe Abercrombe's The Blade Itself.
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Old July 19 2013, 09:05 PM   #1957
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Nagisa Furukawa wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
I don't know if we can look too closely to the Targ interbreeding for an explanation of anything. IIRC, Martin has admitted that genetics aren't his strongpoint. In this continuity, all Baratheons have black hair and all Targs have purple eyes and silvery hair; it's not really like real-world genetics apply.
May seem a pedantic point but not ALL Targs have purple eyes and silver hair. Princess Rhaenys took after her Dornish mother not Rhaegar in appearance and Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight also doesn't look traditionally Targ (or traditionally Valyrian). A minor point but an important one given how many times I've heard "But how can Jon be a Targaryen if he's got brown hair?"
There's that, and there also appears to be a clue in the whole Baratheon/Lannister "The Seed is Strong" aspect, where any time a dark-haired individual is introduced into the mix, the blond gene seems to go dormant and the offspring always has dark hair. That was what both John Arryn and Ned Stark had discovered while researching the family lines.

So, if Jon is, in fact, the offspring of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (who was said to have had dark hair and resembled Arya) as many people think, Jon's dark hair is easily explained through that lineage.

It makes me feel very sorry for Cat, always having to live with the false belief that Jon was Ned's bastard son, that tore her up inside for years. Ned should have told her - straight up. She would have taken the secret to her grave.
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Old July 19 2013, 09:29 PM   #1958
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
There's that, and there also appears to be a clue in the whole Baratheon/Lannister "The Seed is Strong" aspect, where any time a dark-haired individual is introduced into the mix, the blond gene seems to go dormant and the offspring always has dark hair. That was what both John Arryn and Ned Stark had discovered while researching the family lines.
Not all, just some, otherwise the Targaryen look wouldn't have survived at all. Dany's direct ancestors include an Arryn (the first wife of Viserys I) and a Martell (Daeron II's wife), but they had blonde children.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:00 PM   #1959
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Re Cat not being in on the parentage thing - I've always assumed that Lyanna made Ned swear to tell nobody, not a soul. Most men would have confided in their wives - espcially if the alternative was a likely cold shoulder for adultery - but Ned would have obeyed his oath to the letter.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:23 PM   #1960
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I get the impression that the Targaryens were always supposed to be the rightful rulers of Westeros, their pedigree supposedly deriving from the noblest of Valyrian blood. . .
As far as I recall, the Targaryens were simply one of many highborn Valyrian families but lucked out in being the only one (the only one with Dragons at least) to survive The Doom.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:26 PM   #1961
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Not to mention that when Ned came back from the Tower of Joy, he didn't even know her that well. By the time of AGoT could he have trusted her with that secret? Absolutely. But when Jon was born, there was no way of knowing she could be trusted and then how do you break it to her years later, "BTW I've been lying to you for 14 years."

It also keeps Cat safe if she genuinely doesn't know. Not bringing her in on it, which would be considered treason in Robert's eyes, would keep her safe if the truth ever was discovered. Just her knowing could endanger the whole situation as, though she may have tried to feign it, it would be hard to be as genuinely cold to Jon as she was before knowing the truth. If she changed how she acted, even in subtle ways, that could start to unravel the whole thing.

So yeah, it was shitty to lie to Cat (and to Jon himself, of course), but even if Lyanna didn't specifically tell him to (which she may well might have), it was absolutely the right choice to never speak this truth aloud.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:36 PM   #1962
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I thought that the Baratheon had Targaryen blood from a marriage. That was what Robert used to legitimize his claim to the throne. So you would have Stannis, Jon and Daney with the same blood, the blood of kings to create the triumvirate that is Azor Aha. They talk about the three headed dragon and everyone thinks it equates with the three dragons of Daney but what if its actually the three with Tagaryen blood.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:44 PM   #1963
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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I thought that the Baratheon had Targaryen blood from a marriage. That was what Robert used to legitimize his claim to the throne. So you would have Stannis, Jon and Daney with the same blood, the blood of kings to create the triumvirate that is Azor Aha. They talk about the three headed dragon and everyone thinks it equates with the three dragons of Daney but what if its actually the three with Tagaryen blood.
I'm thinking it will be the dragon (Jon) has three heads (positions): the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, King in the North (via Robb's will) and maybe King on Iron Throne (without actually sitting on the Throne; heavily doubt he leaves the North alive before the series ends) or something else for the third.

As to your, maybe all three will be AAR, well true, Stannis does have some Targ blood, but the Ghost of High Heart said the Prince That Was Promised will specifically come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, which fits both Dany and Jon but not Stannis.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:11 PM   #1964
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Didn't the Lannisters also have Targaryen/Valyrian blood? I thought that was why they had lighter hair than all the other noble families.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:13 PM   #1965
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^ Then there's the Jaime/Cersei sibling-love thing which is a bit Targ too...
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