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Old July 19 2013, 06:51 PM   #1936
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Cat was dead for 3 days before being revived and Beric was reincarnated over and over again. Assuming that Mel does revive Jon, he won't have been 'dead' for as long, so presumably the loss of self will have been less in his case.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:02 PM   #1937
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I hope it isn't as simple as people here are suggesting. Just having Melisandre revive him seems too cheap and easy.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:03 PM   #1938
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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The theory goes that if Jon wargs into Ghost before he dies, and then wargs back into his body after its revived, he won't be damaged like Beric and Catelyn were by death.
Good point. IIRC, he was asking Orell a lot of questions about warging when he was spending time with the Wildlings. He might have learned a few things, although definitely doesn't seem quite as practiced at it as Bran had become.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:05 PM   #1939
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I hope it isn't as simple as people here are suggesting. Just having Melisandre revive him seems too cheap and easy.
Jon's story has been full of cheap easy things for him, so this would fit the pattern.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:07 PM   #1940
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

If Jon is the true Azor Ahai reborn (which I think Mel is starting to get that impression), it would stand to reason he would get preferential treatment from the author, as he will likely eventually become King of Westeros and, ergo, need to survive at all costs, including having a relatively easy time of it.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:10 PM   #1941
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

What if Jon, Stannis and Daney were all Azor Ahai. They each have a little bit of him and have to come together to stand against the others...
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Old July 19 2013, 07:29 PM   #1942
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Interesting idea - hadn't considered that before. I could see Jon and Daney being the two "halves" of that equation - Jon being "Ice" and Daney being "Fire" (in keeping with the almost Yin/Yang balance the books are inclined to follow), but think Stannis is just simply a man who derives his "right" from a temporary royal lineage, who just happened to be Robert Baratheon's brother - a usurper of his own kind. I'm pretty convinced he'll get swept aside in the next book, most likely from trying to retake Winterfell, removing him from the equation entirely and putting an end to Baratheon claims to the Throne for good (Joffrey and his siblings notwithstanding). As GRRM is never above wiping out relatively major characters, it is an extreme possibility in my book.

I get the impression that the Targaryens were always supposed to be the rightful rulers of Westeros, their pedigree supposedly deriving from the noblest of Valyrian blood. It's only a matter of time before one of them steps up or, as you say, both Jon and Daney sharing rulership as king and queen, following in the Targaryen tradition of familial intermarriage.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:34 PM   #1943
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I dunno, I'd be disappointed if the story simply ends up as the story of the restoration of house Targaryan. Dany means well and there have been good people in that clan (eg Aemon) but by and large they're a bunch of lunatics.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:37 PM   #1944
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Doubtless a byproduct of the narrow interbreeding that the Targaryens seem to embrace as their birthright. Some jumbled chromosomes are inevitable with those kinds of milkshakes. I don't see either Dany or Jon as being nearly as batshit crazy like Viserys or daddy Mad King Aerys. Daney is extremely young and naive, and Jon is...well...Jon, but I don't get the impression that either of them could set fire to Kings Landing (or individual subjects on the main hall's floor of the Red Keep, for that matter) and think they would make a fine royal couple in the end.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:45 PM   #1945
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
If Jon is the true Azor Ahai reborn (which I think Mel is starting to get that impression), it would stand to reason he would get preferential treatment from the author, as he will likely eventually become King of Westeros and, ergo, need to survive at all costs, including having a relatively easy time of it.
I dunno, I think Jon is AAR/TPTWP, but I don't think it'll be as simple and expected as him becoming King of Westeros. My guess is he'll die (after coming back, natch) not knowing his heritage or doing anything about it.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:45 PM   #1946
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^ oh yeah, I'd actually love to see Jon/Dany getting together! But I don't see GRRM going down that route. Then again, he might just surprise us.

The problem I have with Jon embracing his Targ heritage is, who is there to prove it for him? IIRC, the only survivor of the confrontation we've been assuming to be the aftermath of his birth is Howlin Reed. I can't see the nobles of Westeros hailing Jon as king on the say-so of 'a frog-eater.'
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Old July 19 2013, 08:12 PM   #1947
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Doubtless a byproduct of the narrow interbreeding that the Targaryens seem to embrace as their birthright. Some jumbled chromosomes are inevitable with those kinds of milkshakes.
The funny that about this is that the craziest historical Targaryens have tended to emerge following periods of non-inbreeding. The "Mad King" had 50% fresh genetic material (though we aren't told who Jaehaerys II's queen was, just that he married for love). Likewise, there were a spate of sons and grandsons of Daeron II who had mental issues, but Daeron's wife was a Martell.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:15 PM   #1948
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Cat was dead for 3 days before being revived and Beric was reincarnated over and over again. Assuming that Mel does revive Jon, he won't have been 'dead' for as long, so presumably the loss of self will have been less in his case.
I've always thought that the frozen corpses (corpsicles?) in the Wall might be another place that Jon's soul could "flee" to for a spell. Can't really see any other purpose for them at this point, since they didn't re-animate or do anything else on the Westeros side of the Wall before getting stuck on/in ice.

Cheers,
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Old July 19 2013, 08:17 PM   #1949
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

CaptainCanada wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Doubtless a byproduct of the narrow interbreeding that the Targaryens seem to embrace as their birthright. Some jumbled chromosomes are inevitable with those kinds of milkshakes.
The funny that about this is that the craziest historical Targaryens have tended to emerge following periods of non-inbreeding. The "Mad King" had 50% fresh genetic material (though we aren't told who Jaehaerys II's queen was, just that he married for love). Likewise, there were a spate of sons and grandsons of Daeron II who had mental issues, but Daeron's wife was a Martell.
True - I'm not a geneticist, but I'm thinking that would imply that the "crazy gene" is recessive and only re-emerges precisely when new DNA is introduced. Perhaps if there are actual genetics specialists around they may be able to tell us if such things happen in the real world.
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Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Cat was dead for 3 days before being revived and Beric was reincarnated over and over again. Assuming that Mel does revive Jon, he won't have been 'dead' for as long, so presumably the loss of self will have been less in his case.
I've always thought that the frozen corpses (corpsicles?) in the Wall might be another place that Jon's soul could "flee" to for a spell. Can't really see any other purpose for them at this point, since they didn't re-animate or do anything else on the Westeros side of the Wall before getting stuck on/in ice.

Cheers,
-CM-
Due to the inherently magical nature of the wall, being able to repel other magical things (like Coldhands not being able to go through it), that may not be possible. The wall itself might block Jon's attempt at warging, although it needs to be determined if that is in fact a magical endowment, or if it happens to be an actual natural physiological trait of humans in this world of a non-magical nature.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:20 PM   #1950
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

I think the series will end with the iron throne being destroyed, the game of thrones finally finishing. I'd be disappointed if we got anything as simple as Jon or Dany on the throne after defeating the evil Others. ASOIAF is usually more complex than that.
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